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Convair 340 (C-131D) ZS-BRV crash Pretoria, South Africa

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Convair 340 (C-131D) ZS-BRV crash Pretoria, South Africa

Old 23rd Aug 2018, 10:01
  #421 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EDML
Of course it might have been a viable plan to keep the engine running as long as possible due to the OEI performance of this aircraft.
However, I would have expected that this plan is discussed by the flight crew members.
Furthermore, due to the topologie the traffic pattern to the north is very long - they where in the air for 9min until they crashed. With just 4kt of wind a procedure turn and a downwind landing would have been an option to get the plane on the ground ASAP. Maybe there was a reason not to do that but it should have been discussed.
Also, they should have been aware that an engine fire in a piston engine might quickly compromise the structural integrity of the aircraft. Again, that was not discussed.
Hi EDML,
No doubt the wind conditions would have permitted a downwind landing, particularly in an emergency such as pertained.The problem, however, seems to have been keeping the a/c in the air at all. Normally, a procedure turn on a slow aeroplane like the Convair would be executed at Rate-One. That would involve nearly 20 degrees of bank, which - as we can infer from the report that they only climbed 800 ft with wings level - would inevitably have involved a loss of height. You probably know that here are two types of procedure turn in common use? At a turn-rate of Rate-One, the absolute minimum time to turn an aircraft round is 2 minutes - more likely 2 mins 30 seconds.

Apart from the possibility of a forced landing, which could easily have lead to fatalities and probably written the a/c off anyway, the only option was to nurse the airplane around a wide circuit, using minimal bank. That's what they seem to have been attempting. And don't forget that they were apparently experiencing serious flight-control problems.

By the way, I'm not expressing an opinion on flight-crew performance, because there are currently too many unknowns. I'll await a transcript of the GoPro recording, and hope that the investigators will be able to shed light on possible aileron and rudder anomalies, as well as the engine-cowl configuration.
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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 21:16
  #422 (permalink)  
 
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EXPANDED EMERGENCY CHECKLIST
Convair C-131 N131CW
Convair Serial Number 205
USAF Serial Number 54-2809
CV-340 (with all 440 mods)

https://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182145-1.html

"For ANY fire in-flight, the first thought must be to GET DOWN. Major fires in these old airplanes can cause structural failures in less than 60 seconds (there is film to prove it), and it will take not less than three minutes to get this airplane down to sea level from 9,000 feet or so. If the fire is brought under control, it's easy enough to stop the descent, and then evaluate the options.

With a serious fire on board, DO NOT attempt to "stretch" the flight to some airport that is even a short distance away. Put the airplane down in the water, or anywhere, under control."

Last edited by climber314; 27th Aug 2018 at 15:06.
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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 22:09
  #423 (permalink)  
 
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Hmm pretty damning....

Any specifics about this document? Pardon my ignorance but who is that Deakin?
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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 22:25
  #424 (permalink)  
 
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Can we be sure the crew knew the no 1 engine was on fire? The pax down the back on the port side,along with those filming would have know of course. The flames were not "great in lenght" compared with say, avgas pouring from the engine and igniting, with the results of flame as long as the length of the a/c.

My gut tells me it was an oil feed fire.

They obviously knew they were done on power.
Down on power checklist? Best option, attempt to land at nearest suitable.

Last edited by Dan_Brown; 23rd Aug 2018 at 22:46.
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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 22:34
  #425 (permalink)  
 
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Climber, checklists are designed by aircraft manufacturers (people in an office) writing checklists based on one failure at a time. All very straight forward... from the office.
It often does not happen that way in the real world.
Not so good when you have multiple problems. You then need to prioritise.
So it’s a little different when you’re sitting at your desk pointing out what should have been done verses actually being in an aircraft faced with multiple problems.
Easy to comment in hindsight.
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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 22:52
  #426 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atakacs
Hmm pretty damning....

Any specifics about this document? Pardon my ignorance but who is that Deakin?
Well Mr Deakin's opinion is as legitimate as any, I guess. I don't share it, except in the instance when the fire cannot be extinguished promptly. If it has been extinguished, one's choice of a landing site probably depends on how the airplane is performing on the remaining donk. Forgive me for harping back to the Dakota again, but, fifty years ago, plan A was to extinguish the fire and land at the nearest aerodrome. Plan B is open to what desk-occupants call "airmanship".

Quote from climber314:
"You run the checklist and put it down in an open field ASAP.
Statistically speaking, that would result in fewer/less severe injuries than (partially) controlled flight into overhead wires and a ground structure and vehicles."


Your second sentence is un-contestable, but even the best-executed forced landings can end badly. An example was an Air Rhodesia Viscount in 1978. The aeroplane had been hit in the #3 engine by a heat-seeking missile, causing an non-extinguishable fire in that engine and the failure of #4. Having no alternative to a forced landing, the skipper selected a large, apparently unobstructed cotton field. The approach and belly landing were good by all accounts. Shortly after touchdown the a/c encountered an irrigation ditch. It cartwheeled, broke-up and caught fire. Of the 56 SoB, 18 survived. I imagine the Viscount's approach speed may be slightly higher than the CV-340, but in a similar ballpark.
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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 22:56
  #427 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dan_Brown
Can we be sure the crew knew the no 1 engine was on fire?
Do you mean other than the cockpit engine fire warning lights illuminated and the (engineer rated, I believe) passenger coming forward to the cockpit and telling them the left engine was on fire?
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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 23:13
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Oh I stand corrected. I didnt read all the posts. Thanks for the correction.
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 00:08
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Pardon my ignorance but who is that Deakin?
John was the check and trainer on the CAF's big pistons, C-131, B-24, Connie, C-46, B-29 to name a few, and flew a few WWII single engine fighters, including the Zero. Had extensive C-46 experience in Asia early in his career with Air America. At time of retirement was the worlds highest time 747 driver.
Mr Deakin's opinion is as legitimate as any, I guess. I don't share it
But I'd sure listen Chris, and of course context, aircraft type etc may be influencers. Light twins have had the wing fail as a result of engine fire impacting spar integrity, no fire bottles to help.
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 10:52
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Very impressive CV.

He didn't buy his job but got there on ability and drive.

I would very surprised, if he ever addresses himself as "Captain" outside work. Not like a lot of pratts who do. I know at least one who has his name, prefixed by Captain, in his passport. You see he, among others have been brought up in a country where aviation is common place and encouraged. not like Europe for example where the authorities are trying to destroy aviation and making a damned good job of it too.

Sorry I digress.
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 13:39
  #431 (permalink)  
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This accident reminded me of a very good story narrated by late con-pilot
Hangar flying in a bar can save your life.
Piston Convair’s exaust manifold fail, leading to a (hidden) fire with structural damage.




Lots of lessons there, it is worth the reading...
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 15:01
  #432 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ehwatezedoing
This accident reminded me of a very good story narrated by late con-pilot
Hangar flying in a bar can save your life.
Piston Convair’s exaust manifold fail, leading to a (hidden) fire with structural damage.
Lots of lessons there, it is worth the reading...
WOW! I would have tossed my cookies after that too!

Certainly makes one wonder what structural damage this fire may have done?
"Ground witnesses observed and collected melted metal debris, that fell off the aircraft while it remained airborne."

Fortunate they made it back to terra firma with only one fatality.
It could have been A LOT worse.
Hoping all others recover fully in due course.
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 21:37
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom
Climber, checklists are designed by aircraft manufacturers (people in an office) writing checklists based on one failure at a time. All very straight forward... from the office.
It often does not happen that way in the real world.
Not so good when you have multiple problems. You then need to prioritise.
So it’s a little different when you’re sitting at your desk pointing out what should have been done verses actually being in an aircraft faced with multiple problems.
Easy to comment in hindsight.
Well said Capt Fathom,
From an Engineers opinion, this is where the pilots earn their money (it's not enough!).
It's all well and good blaming the crew, but how would those criticising the crew react if faced with a similar situation ?
I for one will wait for the official report before pointing the finger !
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Old 26th Aug 2018, 19:00
  #434 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atakacs
Pardon my ignorance but who is that Deakin?
John Deakin is one guy a lot of people listen to and for a reason to: When he sais something it usually is very true.


John is one of the original Air America pilots (DC3, Curtiss Commando) followed by a distinguished career with JAL as a 747 commander. After retiring he has flown several biz jets but also was one of the top pilots of the CAF, flying the Commando again plus many other airplanes including the B29 FIFI as commander. He used to own a Beech Bonanza for a long time too until he lost his medical a few years ago. Currently he teaches engine seminars. He is probably one of the people alive who know this kind of engines and airplanes better than most others.

His book, "
Full Throttle Full Throttle
" is probably one of the most entertaining aviation reads available.
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Old 27th Aug 2018, 06:47
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hang around airport bars, you might save your life.
Or visit forums like this regularly, it may do the same job
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Old 27th Aug 2018, 08:29
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Originally Posted by Webby737
Well said Capt Fathom,
From an Engineers opinion, this is where the pilots earn their money (it's not enough!).
It's all well and good blaming the crew, but how would those criticising the crew react if faced with a similar situation ?
I for one will wait for the official report before pointing the finger !
I agree Webby.
It would be interesting to see if the outcome differed any if 4 assholer and Grizzly Bare were crewing
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Old 27th Aug 2018, 21:51
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"Full Throttle" by John Deakin

Originally Posted by AN2 Driver
John Deakin is one guy a lot of people listen to and for a reason to: When he sais something it usually is very true.

His book, "Full Throttle" is probably one of the most entertaining aviation reads available.
Just finished reading his book. I'd highly recommend it to anyone interested interested in historical piston aircraft from a pilot's perspective.
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Old 4th Sep 2018, 11:17
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Originally Posted by Dan_Brown
I would very surprised, if he ever addresses himself as "Captain" outside work. Not like a lot of pratts who do.

You'd be right. He was still flying for JAL when he started writing Pelican's Perch fore AvWeb. He hit the age at which he could no longer fly as PIC, but continued to fly as a first officer. He mentioned in one if his columns having to instruct some of his co-workers to quite addressing him as "Captain" as he wasn't serving in that role any more.
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Old 4th Sep 2018, 13:21
  #439 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AN2 Driver
John Deakin is one guy a lot of people listen to and for a reason to: When he sais something it usually is very true.


John is one of the original Air America pilots (DC3, Curtiss Commando) followed by a distinguished career with JAL as a 747 commander. After retiring he has flown several biz jets but also was one of the top pilots of the CAF, flying the Commando again plus many other airplanes including the B29 FIFI as commander. He used to own a Beech Bonanza for a long time too until he lost his medical a few years ago. Currently he teaches engine seminars. He is probably one of the people alive who know this kind of engines and airplanes better than most others.

His book, "Full Throttle" is probably one of the most entertaining aviation reads available.
I know John. Very knowledgeable and a good guy. He's forgotten more about aircraft engines than most of us will ever know.
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Old 4th Sep 2018, 13:56
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Originally Posted by Chris Scott
Well Mr Deakin's opinion is as legitimate as any, I guess. I don't share it, except in the instance when the fire cannot be extinguished promptly. If it has been extinguished, one's choice of a landing site probably depends on how the airplane is performing on the remaining donk. Forgive me for harping back to the Dakota again, but, fifty years ago, plan A was to extinguish the fire and land at the nearest aerodrome. Plan B is open to what desk-occupants call "airmanship".

Quote from climber314:
"You run the checklist and put it down in an open field ASAP.
Statistically speaking, that would result in fewer/less severe injuries than (partially) controlled flight into overhead wires and a ground structure and vehicles."


Your second sentence is un-contestable, but even the best-executed forced landings can end badly. An example was an Air Rhodesia Viscount in 1978. The aeroplane had been hit in the #3 engine by a heat-seeking missile, causing an non-extinguishable fire in that engine and the failure of #4. Having no alternative to a forced landing, the skipper selected a large, apparently unobstructed cotton field. The approach and belly landing were good by all accounts. Shortly after touchdown the a/c encountered an irrigation ditch. It cartwheeled, broke-up and caught fire. Of the 56 SoB, 18 survived. I imagine the Viscount's approach speed may be slightly higher than the CV-340, but in a similar ballpark.
Of those that did survive many were killed by the fighters responsible for the missile; the few that survived entirely had taken shelter in the bush or going in search of help.
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