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Convair 340 (C-131D) ZS-BRV crash Pretoria, South Africa

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Convair 340 (C-131D) ZS-BRV crash Pretoria, South Africa

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Old 14th Jul 2018, 10:33
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The Conquest craft looks like it has been converted to a CV-580?
Better inform the FAA quick, they have it as an C-131F
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 17:39
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Originally Posted by Hotel Tango
However, it was reported in several publications as having been converted to an CV-340.
Is that even possible? I'm not a Convair expert but I seem to recall that a 340 had a longer wing than the 240.
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 18:10
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Originally Posted by Hotel Tango
Better inform the FAA quick, they have it as an C-131F
The plane in the photo is obviously a piston Convair, but looking in the FAA aircraft registration database doesn't necessarily tell you whether a plane is a 580, a 580 will still be registered as a CV340, or CV440. For aircraft certification purposes, a 580 isn't an aircraft type, it's an STC modification.
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Old 14th Jul 2018, 18:48
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Originally Posted by aterpster
As to single-engine performance just after lift-off, it was problematic. There was no requirement to meet a OEI takeoff flight path when these airplanes were certified.
The 240 was certified under CAR 4b, effective 1946. that version of the CAR contained a requirement for OEI performance CAR 4b.116.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 21:00
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Originally Posted by aterpster
You were able to comply with 121.189?
We operated piston Convairs under part 121, we had to meet 121.177.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 21:21
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Link posted on the internet of a remarkable video from a light aircraft showing the last minutes of this flight. Image quality is limited, but confirms that it was struggling to hold altitude before crashing:
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 21:47
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From what someone has posted here, the density altitude would have been about 5,700 ft. That would not be good for performance on a limited performance aeroplane. That was a long way that they struggled with it.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 21:48
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Very sad indeed. FYI United States FAA SFP ( Ferry Permit ) for aircraft that size not on FAA121 AOC/Ops specs. Essential crew only ( 3 max ) plus mechanic all must hold FAA license, this old machine seems was a straight out ferry candidate only. Read she was carrying 19 pax and gear maybe 2000kg I guess to much at her age at 5700 foot field elevation. I hope all are recovering quickly, looks like crew did the best with what they were given.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 00:18
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Originally Posted by MarkerInbound


We operated piston Convairs under part 121, we had to meet 121.177.
Good catch! I am jet oriented.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 00:34
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Image quality is limited, but confirms that it was struggling to hold altitude before crashing
Not sure you can tell that from the video, but it certainly had plenty of speed. Passed that C172/182 like it was standing still!

Perhaps that smoking engine was still producing power at that stage?
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 06:10
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Yes the crew certainly put up a good fight. The real reason all? got out alive, is they seemed to have hit the ground "under control", therefore not stalled. A lesson for us all. Unfortunatly the TAS/ground speed would have been high, considering the D.A.

Last edited by Dan_Brown; 16th Jul 2018 at 09:02.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 10:41
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With both pilots alive they should be able to give a good account of what happened to the enquiry, they should be out of hospital soon. There may well be other contributing factors such as problems with the gear or flaps.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 11:38
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they should be out of hospital soon
If current media reports are true, both pilots are still in induced comas, and unlikely to be out of hospital any time soon.
When they do come around, I’d be surprised if they remember anything that happened that day.

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Old 16th Jul 2018, 12:36
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Originally Posted by A Squared
The 240 was certified under CAR 4b, effective 1946. that version of the CAR contained a requirement for OEI performance CAR 4b.116.
Did that require a regulatory-defined takeoff flight path to clear all terrain and obstacles to a specified altitude?
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 14:21
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No, CAR 4 and the current part 25 are only certification rules that set certain performance requirements. CAR 4 required rates of climb that were a function of stall speed. FAR 25 requires set climb gradients. At least in the USA part 121 requires the operator to work backwards from the manufacturer's performance data to insure obstacle clearance taking into consideration current conditions.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 15:04
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Originally Posted by aterpster
Did that require a regulatory-defined takeoff flight path to clear all terrain and obstacles to a specified altitude?
CAR4b-116 defines the takeoff path segments and CAR4-b.120 specifies the OEI takeoff performance. Why is it so astonishing to you that an aircraft certificated in the transport category for airline operations post WWII ans operated by airlines has OEI takeoff performance?
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 15:08
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Originally Posted by MarkerInbound
CAR 4 required rates of climb that were a function of stall speed. FAR 25 requires set climb gradients.
True, but a climb rate specified as a ratio of speed equates to a gradient, even though the gradient isn't stated explicitly.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 15:20
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Originally Posted by A Squared
CAR4b-116 defines the takeoff path segments and CAR4-b.120 specifies the OEI takeoff performance. Why is it so astonishing to you that an aircraft certificated in the transport category for airline operations post WWII ans operated by airlines has OEI takeoff performance?
Not astonished at all. Just trying to learn something about the piston era.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 15:39
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Originally Posted by aterpster
Not astonished at all. Just trying to learn something about the piston era.
OK, it seemed to me like you were resisting the notion, which seemed surprising coming from someone from the era when seeing Convairs, DC-6's and the like flying for the airlines was pretty common.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 16:43
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Originally Posted by A Squared
OK, it seemed to me like you were resisting the notion, which seemed surprising coming from someone from the era when seeing Convairs, DC-6's and the like flying for the airlines was pretty common.
When I went to work for TWA in early 1964, they were still flying the Connie. I just missed being a F/E on it. 3 years later I just missed it for my initial captain upgrade. So, I was not exposed to piston planning and performance. TWA had retired the Martin before I came aboard, which would be the closet to the Convair twins.

Before I learned to fly I rode on UAL's DC-6s several times. I didn't have a clue about the airspace or airway structure at the time. I do recall riding from Stapleton to Burbank one Spring (1955) afternoon. There were peaks higher than us on both sides somewhere in the Rockies. The cu was building around us. Suddenly, we were solid IMC and the g-load increased until we popped out going eastbound. That was a learning experience.
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