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Pilot Sues For Forced Retirement

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Pilot Sues For Forced Retirement

Old 11th Jul 2018, 18:07
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Heading up to retirement myself and I just can’t wait to get away from the airline environment of pilot de-skilling and over reliance on automation in the name of illusionary safety.
………...
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Old 12th Jul 2018, 06:48
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Originally Posted by CargoOne View Post
Just make one rule: if you wish to continue after 65 you have to re-join seniority list and pay grade from the bottom. And then we see how many takers are there...
Could you explain to many pilots who might read this what a 'seniority list' or a 'pay grade' is? Some of the old-fashioned airlines had something like that, didn't they? (Some still might have.) Many modern pilots wouldn't know what those two concepts are. So what place would they have in this discussion?

Could someone give some information about how 'unsafe' the travelling public in Australia, New Zealand and Canada feel due to the fact that they might have 'old' pilots flying them?
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Old 12th Jul 2018, 07:00
  #63 (permalink)  
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I agree pilots who want to increase the maximum age for a pilot to be allowed to fly generally are doing it for money. When two airlines have gone bust underneath you, periods of unemployment to overcome, eventually getting a start again, RHS, only to be back on the streets within a few years, two pension funds badly depleted, most of your savings gone just to pay the mortgage and reaching ones late forties with all retirement hopes and dreams shattered then yes, I do agree that money is a major motivator to raise the arbitrarily imposed retirement age.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 00:14
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Originally Posted by swh View Post
The reasoning behind this, medical checks miss a lot of unhealthy people, so do operational checks.

https://www.icao.int/NACC/Documents/...ICAO-Evans.pdf
Dr Evan's has updated that missive and is now advocating no age limit with performance based checks
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 00:20
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Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
I agree pilots who want to increase the maximum age for a pilot to be allowed to fly generally are doing it for money. When two airlines have gone bust underneath you, periods of unemployment to overcome, eventually getting a start again, RHS, only to be back on the streets within a few years, two pension funds badly depleted, most of your savings gone just to pay the mortgage and reaching ones late forties with all retirement hopes and dreams shattered then yes, I do agree that money is a major motivator to raise the arbitrarily imposed retirement age.
Of course they are doing it for the money but there are often additional reasons as well. Would you deny that younger pilots who want to deny them staying on are also doing it for the money? Based on the FACT that older pilots staying on in Canada Australia New Zealand Japan have had no increased "incident rate" would indicate there is no medical justification for the restriction means the restriction is purely discrimination on the basis of age.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 08:04
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This has already been ruled on by the UK Supreme Court https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...l-7678309.html

Case Law already ruled on with a precedent set, I suspect this guy will not win and just cost himself a lot of money.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 08:17
  #67 (permalink)  

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A PPRuNe'r tried this in court a few years ago. He wasn't successful.

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Old 15th Jul 2018, 10:28
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Originally Posted by Juan Tugoh View Post
This has already been ruled on by the UK Supreme Court https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...l-7678309.html

Case Law already ruled on with a precedent set, I suspect this guy will not win and just cost himself a lot of money.
Not necessarily, I imagine he and his legal team are aware of all the legal precedents and will be going to court with a different argument and or a new set of facts .
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 10:37
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Advice for younger pilots

As an older pilot who has seen the age limit go up to 65 during my career and observing the attitude of the younger pilots on this forum .... It is inevitable the age limit will go up again, if not totally removed, during your career... plan for it. You should also not assume more sh#t will not happen to you. Companies collapse, economies fail, families have problems. Deal with it and move on or become bitter and screw up your life.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 10:54
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Originally Posted by BGQ View Post
As an older pilot who has seen the age limit go up to 65 during my career and observing the attitude of the younger pilots on this forum .... It is inevitable the age limit will go up again, if not totally removed, during your career... plan for it. You should also not assume more sh#t will not happen to you. Companies collapse, economies fail, families have problems. Deal with it and move on or become bitter and screw up your life.
Sure stuff changes. The more you seek legal challenges to established practice on discrimination grounds the more ALL customs and practice can be challenged. Seniority is de facto discriminatory - you simply cannot have 30 years seniority and be under 48 or so. So having the benefits of 30 years seniority is discriminatory for all under the age of 48 or so, no youngster can achieve those benefits, you can try to call it a reward for service, but, as it is a lifestyle thing rather than a salary thing. Losing seniority based bidding etc would change the equation for all the wrinklies trying to stay with their noses in the trough. So change the retirement age, all can change, making it worse for everyone. I hope this greedy chancer loses his selfish and self centred attempt to screw over the future of us all for his 30 pieces of silver.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 12:08
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Originally Posted by beachbumflyer View Post
They love their salary even more!
Indeed. There is a reason why you never hear of, say, a Twin Otter pilot suing to keep working. It's always some gummer in a widebody...
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 12:10
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Originally Posted by parabellum View Post
I agree pilots who want to increase the maximum age for a pilot to be allowed to fly generally are doing it for money.
A few of them even have the intergrity to admit it, much to their credit.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 12:59
  #73 (permalink)  

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Youngsters should consider themselves financially well off in other ways. My first house was purchased when the mortgage interest rate jumped from 9.5% to 15% in just a few weeks. For many like me there was no spare money to invest for the future and we lived below the breadline for years afterwards. What was invested has since lost ground very severely and I'm still playing catchup.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 13:00
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Go home guys and play some golf. We do not need to increase the retirement age, give me a break! what is wrong with people? do you really not have a life?
This and comments about keeping one’s nose in the trough point to some surprising jealousy in our profession. Who are we to judge how much somebody ‘needs’ to earn?

Would we say the same about, say, musicians? “Please Mr McCartney and Mr Clapton, stop insisting on playing your instrument that you spent 40 years perfecting. Leave the music to the young ones and go and grow tomatoes”? (Music is not normally life threatening of course, apart from some other bands I could mention .........)

Owing to the seniority system that exists in most airlines, the young ones are held away from the LHS until the old ones retire. So the young ones want the old ones out as soon as possible so that they - the young ones - can earn more money. (Who is being mercenary or selfish there?). But the older person was there first - why shouldn’t s/he continue? “They are not fit enough” comes the reply. Many of them are indeed unfit - they eat a bad diet, are obese or morbidly obese and never do any exercise. But what about the ones that do keep themselves fit - why shouldn’t they carry on if they want to? Medical and SIM tests might have to adapt to check health and mental faculties more thoroughly, but that is not beyond the wit of man.

Governments tell the general public that they cannot retire at 65 any more - they will have to work for longer. Yet, in the airline profession, where we are scruitinised very carefully once or twice a year both for our performance AND our medical condition, there remains this culture of ‘retire early’.

You can’t have it both ways.

Last edited by Uplinker; 15th Jul 2018 at 13:10.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 13:14
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Unfortunately due to the nature of this industry and associated ego issues, the jealousy is actually unsurprising and some of the comments here are unworthy of apparent professionals. Personally, I think that the antipodeans etc are absolutely correct in that medical fitness and competence should be the sole arbiters of continued pilot careers. In an era when anything that ends in - ist causes outrage in the permanently offended but ageist appears not to be in the lexicon.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 14:04
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
Owing to the seniority system that exists in most airlines, the young ones are held away from the LHS until the old ones retire. So the young ones want the old ones out as soon as possible so that they - the young ones - can earn more money. (Who is being mercenary or selfish there?). But the older person was there first - why shouldn’t s/he continue?
How did the "old" one got in that position? Maybe because the one before them retired at the mandatory age?
Why did not the old one fight to raise or eliminate the retirement age when they were sitting on the right seat?
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 14:38
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Originally Posted by arketip View Post
How did the "old" one got in that position? Maybe because the one before them retired at the mandatory age?
Why did not the old one fight to raise or eliminate the retirement age when they were sitting on the right seat?
Good question.
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 15:18
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Originally Posted by flyboyike View Post
Originally Posted by arketip
Originally Posted by Uplinker
Owing to the seniority system that exists in most airlines, the young ones are held away from the LHS until the old ones retire. So the young ones want the old ones out as soon as possible so that they - the young ones - can earn more money. (Who is being mercenary or selfish there?). But the older person was there first - why shouldn’t s/he continue?
How did the "old" one got in that position? Maybe because the one before them retired at the mandatory age?
Why did not the old one fight to raise or eliminate the retirement age when they were sitting on the right seat?
Good question.
Erm Pardon? ... Read it all again. The old one surely had other struggles and priorities getting into and keeping the RHS, let alone progressing through ups and downs of the industry, and unless from down under, might have certainly been part of a less enlightened society! It surely also begs the real question about why exactly - when we as a society are far more aware of what can be done against deliberate unlawful discrimination - that the current young ones aren't arguing to uphold the law, or to support the old one in upholding it. Frankly, none of it is pretty to behold from pros who are otherwise supposed to follow law and rules to the letter

Maybe you know better than both the elders and the lawmakers? You shouldn't be afraid of questioning the judgement of the former sat in a LHS, but the latter? That's not something I would think would normally be seen as a good quality in a professional pilot at any rate!

As others have indicated, the Australians got past this nonsense years ago. Why are so many of the rest intent on remaining so Neanderthal about it?
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 16:36
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It surely also begs the real question about why exactly - when we as a society are far more aware of what can be done against deliberate unlawful discrimination - that the current young ones aren't arguing to uphold the law, or to support the old one in upholding it.
A point of information if I may?

Specifying a retirement age for pilots, of 65 years. Is of course “discrimination”, and unarguably “deliberate”. However what it most definitely (currently) is NOT, is “unlawful”!

Indeed, quite the opposite is true. There are various protected characteristics. Only one of which is age. However, unlike all other protected characteristics, discrimination on the basis of age, most definitely CAN be legal. This is because certain Objective Justifications can be used to back up such things as compulsory retirement ages for certain professions. By all means research this if you are interested.

However, back to the above quote. It is actually the “current young ones” who ARE arguing to uphold the law. It is actually “the old one” seeking to change it. Having of course benefitted from the previous compulsory retirement of all his/her elders!

Which makes this quote rather interesting?
Maybe you know better than both the elders and the lawmakers. You shouldn't be afraid of questioning the judgement of the former sat in a LHS, but the latter? That's not something I would think would normally be seen as a good quality in a professional pilot at any rate!
I couldn’t agree more!
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 16:48
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I have asked before: could somebody explain what a 'seniority system' is? There are many, many pilots who are not on any such system.

If I do some simple sums, it appears to me that if the odd captain doesn't retire at 65 and delays the odd first-officer/co-pilot from a promotion, that new captain, when he gets his promotion, will have the new advantage of being able to continue working longer himself and thus enjoying a very similar number of years as captain as he would have enjoyed under the old enforced retirement age. So where is the problem? In other words, being able to retire later is not only a benefit to old pilots but to ALL pilots!! (As they will all become old themselves one day.)

Also, there are endless predictions of growth in the airline industry, so surely that will create promotion opportunities for all those 'hard done by' junior pilots who are complaining about this causing them to lose promotion opportunities. It appears that with all those youngsters having the opportunities of growing airlines and increased life/job expectancy themselves that they do complain a bit much.

But please someone, explain what a seniority system is?
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