Egyptair 804 crash cause according to BEA
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Would be interesting to find out if ICAO can find a solution for countries not publishing reports.
One option might be to give interested parties an opportunity to file an official report (in their own language and english) at ICAO if the lead country does not abide by the rules (say for example after 3 or 5 years, which should give the lead country enough time). That official report could then be used by ICAO and the global aerospace community as the default report for that specific case.
One option might be to give interested parties an opportunity to file an official report (in their own language and english) at ICAO if the lead country does not abide by the rules (say for example after 3 or 5 years, which should give the lead country enough time). That official report could then be used by ICAO and the global aerospace community as the default report for that specific case.
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Honesty?
No accident report? No surprises from Egypt. nor Pakistan, nor Cuba, nor a host of other 3rd world countries. Their pilots are never to blame, nor the airline's maintenance, nor anything remotely connected to their country.
Simply a good reason to avoid flying with carriers from the 3rd world. Which I do.
Simply a good reason to avoid flying with carriers from the 3rd world. Which I do.
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Simply a good reason to avoid flying with carriers from the 3rd world. Which I do.
A0283 :
Would be interesting to find out if ICAO can find a solution for countries not publishing reports.
ATC Watcher is absolutely right. ICAO does a tremendous amount of good work but member states have not given it the right to mandate. States can and do file exemptions and quite often ignore ICAO recommendations.
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Regarding ICAO, though indeed it exists as an agency within the UN structure overall, and lacks the authority to enforce SARPs or Annexes or the Convention Articles as if it were a court of a sovereign state, IMHO the system it administers has enabled and supported standardization - not universally, but on a very widespread basis.
The suggestion by A0283 would seem to involve some change to Annex 13, such that a process for producing a substitute investigation report would be available. The lack of literal mandatory enforcement powers at ICAO does not make this a pointless effort.
Whether there is an informal, between-the-lines system within ICAO for imposing consequences if not sanctions as such, upon states which depart from Annex 13 processes (or other components of the ICAO system) is a "nice" question -- but its answer doesn't make the idea of a substitute report process - available after a certain lapse of time - an inadvisable idea.
The suggestion by A0283 would seem to involve some change to Annex 13, such that a process for producing a substitute investigation report would be available. The lack of literal mandatory enforcement powers at ICAO does not make this a pointless effort.
Whether there is an informal, between-the-lines system within ICAO for imposing consequences if not sanctions as such, upon states which depart from Annex 13 processes (or other components of the ICAO system) is a "nice" question -- but its answer doesn't make the idea of a substitute report process - available after a certain lapse of time - an inadvisable idea.
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ICAO was created to get a form of internationally agreed rules in civil Aviation , as well as covering international airspace . It is mainly standardization body ,and some annexes, like Annex 13 are not their priority, The priority is PANS OPS and PANS ATM, and that works relatively well. and keeps us safe when we fly
As to accident investigation reports, although there is a template , there is no guarantee the contents will be useful . I have seen some reports of a few pages but where every question is answered, but tells you absolutely nothing , to 400 pages ones .But in the end , the analysis is what counts. The problem today is that insurance lawyers ( sorry Willow run ) are looking for clues to blame someone to get either their clients off the hook , or just make money for the families ( and themselves) . That explains partially why some recent reports keeps things vague if the investigators are not 100% sure of a fact. Bad for safety and we may be missing important clues as a result.
As to accident investigation reports, although there is a template , there is no guarantee the contents will be useful . I have seen some reports of a few pages but where every question is answered, but tells you absolutely nothing , to 400 pages ones .But in the end , the analysis is what counts. The problem today is that insurance lawyers ( sorry Willow run ) are looking for clues to blame someone to get either their clients off the hook , or just make money for the families ( and themselves) . That explains partially why some recent reports keeps things vague if the investigators are not 100% sure of a fact. Bad for safety and we may be missing important clues as a result.
Whether there is an informal, between-the-lines system within ICAO for imposing consequences if not sanctions as such, upon states which depart from Annex 13 processes (or other components of the ICAO system) is a "nice" question -- but its answer doesn't make the idea of a substitute report process - available after a certain lapse of time - an inadvisable idea.
However, as in much of life, desirable and feasible aren't the same thing.
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One of the consequences of not having final reports is that the ‘global’ data is not complete
There are closed doors meetings where IATA, the manufacturers and ops people cooperate and solve things, Not always visible but very effective.
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ATC Watcher
The effective "coin of the realm" in law and litigation in this area is an LL.M. degree - while there are exceptional cases of successful practices and firms, they prove the rule.
The point is, an LL.M. entails both Public Int'l Air Law, and Privare Int'l Air Law - the latter being where the lawyers live on one side of the fence, or the other, i.e,, they rep either airframers and other OEMs and airlines etc., or families of accident victims. Rare is the legal-eagle repping either, or both.
So, no apologies to yours truly. I'm done with law practice structured by sides of the fence.
The effective "coin of the realm" in law and litigation in this area is an LL.M. degree - while there are exceptional cases of successful practices and firms, they prove the rule.
The point is, an LL.M. entails both Public Int'l Air Law, and Privare Int'l Air Law - the latter being where the lawyers live on one side of the fence, or the other, i.e,, they rep either airframers and other OEMs and airlines etc., or families of accident victims. Rare is the legal-eagle repping either, or both.
So, no apologies to yours truly. I'm done with law practice structured by sides of the fence.
Re. the cigarette story, I'm inclined to trust Simon@AVHerald a bit more than the Italian newspaper:
@ antonio bordoni on Saturday, Apr 30th 2022 14:07Z
By Simon Hradecky on Saturday, Apr 30th 2022 18:05Z
Without being able to reveal the sources: the information is contained in the official investigation files and is corroborated by testimonies of close friends and colleagues of the pilots involved.
Pilots non-smokers
By antonio bordoni on Saturday, Apr 30th 2022 14:07Z
if someone can actually confirm that both pilots were non-smokers, I can contact the newspaper in question and highlight the fake news they published
By Simon Hradecky on Saturday, Apr 30th 2022 18:05Z
Without being able to reveal the sources: the information is contained in the official investigation files and is corroborated by testimonies of close friends and colleagues of the pilots involved.
Pilots non-smokers
By antonio bordoni on Saturday, Apr 30th 2022 14:07Z
if someone can actually confirm that both pilots were non-smokers, I can contact the newspaper in question and highlight the fake news they published
They appear to be calling it into question, but I don't think they've got the kind of ammo refutation would need, or, if they do, they are playing their cards close to their vests.
Admittedly, my post was also too brief to be unambiguous, the 'cigarette-as-an-ignition-source theory' as such is not refuted, but blaming the Capt. or F/O, as stated in the Corriere Della Sera newspaper, seems to conflict with the 'information corroborated by testimonies' that both were non-smokers.
With 10 crew on board and smoking in the cockpit not prohibited at the time, the possibility that a cockpit jumpseat was occupied by a smoker, cannot be excluded....
Last edited by DIBO; 13th May 2022 at 20:44. Reason: spelling
Hello,
It was on AVHERALD (article=4987fb09) :
On May 20th 2016 The Aviation Herald received information from three independent channels, that ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System) messages with following content were received from the aircraft:
00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
00:28Z 561100 R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT
no further ACARS messages were received.
Early May 21st 2016 the French BEA confirmed there were ACARS messages just prior to break down of communications warning however that they are insufficient to understand the causes of the accident until flight data or cockpit voice recorders have been found
Good evening to everyone.
It was on AVHERALD (article=4987fb09) :
On May 20th 2016 The Aviation Herald received information from three independent channels, that ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System) messages with following content were received from the aircraft:
00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
00:28Z 561100 R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT
no further ACARS messages were received.
Early May 21st 2016 the French BEA confirmed there were ACARS messages just prior to break down of communications warning however that they are insufficient to understand the causes of the accident until flight data or cockpit voice recorders have been found
Good evening to everyone.
Absent that time data, there is nothing to indicate it was an iPad, or battery pack or O2 mask issue.
As to fighting a fire originating at the power contacts of the window, as long as there is power supplied the item is not going to stop burning once the extinguish ant is removed from the atmosphere.
A descent from cruise to impact in less than 8 minutes, with much of that eestablishing a descent is not likely to result in anything less than massive fragmentation on impact. If ballistic penetration, stippling or other evidence of an explosive device is absent, there is no need for there to have been an explosion.
The seat of the fire may not have been at the window itself, it would merely need to be related to the power supply associated with the RH window, less likelyhood of involvement of a control circuit but all things are possible inthe absence of all of the evidence which does exist but appears to not be released to the public.
Crew smoking is a low probability causation and would have had verbal commentary on a CVR recording.
I would look at power circuits for the window, and where they are not directly observed by the crew from the EE Bay etc.
