Egyptair 804 crash cause according to BEA
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA
Age: 78
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Was there not indication of a fire at the first officer windshield heating element connection? I can't remember now the places where I saw that mentioned and how that was identified - ACARS? Then the lavatory and equipment bay heat and smoke. A short at the windshield should have been protected by its circuit breaker but that is where I first saw someone suspect the first officer had placed their iPad near there. I don't know the design of the location, if there is some place to place an iPad, but most airplane knowledgeable people talked about a cockpit fire. I do remember that within minutes of the incident Trump Tweeted "There the Islamists go taking down another one." That is about as far as I read certifying it was an act of terrorism.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that a number of European operators (and possibly others) have imposed prohibitions on non-company-supplied portable electronic devices on the flight deck.
While we could argue as to whether or not that was a "lesson learned" from MS804, given that no probable cause has yet been determined, I don't think it's a coincidence.
While we could argue as to whether or not that was a "lesson learned" from MS804, given that no probable cause has yet been determined, I don't think it's a coincidence.
Well it would suit the French to accept this narrative, after all no more looking at a CDG security breach.
This feels like an entirely politically driven conclusion to suit various parties. The truth as it were will never see the light of day, even if it were a fire, it could have been induced by somebody on board with nefarious motives (and tools), and then become uncontained, thus being a terrorist activity in reality.
This feels like an entirely politically driven conclusion to suit various parties. The truth as it were will never see the light of day, even if it were a fire, it could have been induced by somebody on board with nefarious motives (and tools), and then become uncontained, thus being a terrorist activity in reality.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It was on AVHERALD (article=4987fb09) :
On May 20th 2016 The Aviation Herald received information from three independent channels, that ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System) messages with following content were received from the aircraft:
00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
00:28Z 561100 R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT
no further ACARS messages were received.
Early May 21st 2016 the French BEA confirmed there were ACARS messages just prior to break down of communications warning however that they are insufficient to understand the causes of the accident until flight data or cockpit voice recorders have been found
Good evening to everyone.
As well as these ACARS messages we have the CVR. We know the pilots were fighting a fire with halon extinguishers to no avail. So all we have to do is ask ourselves—what fire won’t be put out with halon extinguishers? Answer— incendiary device, lithium battery and oxygen fed fires.
Last edited by birdspeed; 9th Jul 2018 at 13:41. Reason: improved wording
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Thessaloniki, GRECE
Age: 41
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As far as I'm aware, the Egyptian view that there was an explosion on board was not based on having detected explosive residue, but rather on the fact that none of the body parts recovered from any of the passengers or crew were larger than the size of a hand, and the only identification possible was via DNA.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: en route
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the current edition of The Economist - the journalist's story of cigarette smoke emanating from the cockpit exactly fits my experience the last three times I flew with EgyptAir. I wouldn't fly with them again. I try to avoid stereotypes, but probably more than any country I can think of, every time something goes wrong the Egyptian official narrative defaults to 'it wasn't our fault, must have been someone else'.
https://www.economist.com/gulliver/2018/07/14/what-really-happened-to-egyptair-flight-804
GULLIVER is not the type of person to kick up a fuss on his travels, least of all when lucky enough to be at the front of the plane. But his patience was pushed to the limit a couple of years ago, when his EgyptAir flight from Cairo to London was blighted by the near-constant stench of cigarette smoke wafting in from the cockpit. Shackled by British meekness and an unwillingness to challenge a flight crew, your asthmatic correspondent suffered the coughs and tried instead to focus on work. Conversations with Egyptian friends later revealed that on-board cigarette smoke is hardly a rarity when flying with the North African flag-carrier. Naturally, anecdotes such as this provide only a snapshot of an airline’s safety standards. But it is a deeply disturbing snapshot given the stalled investigation into EgyptAir Flight 804, which crashed into the Mediterranean Sea during a routine flight from Paris to Cairo in 2016, killing all 66 people aboard. This month, France’s air-crash investigation agency, BEA, took the unusual step of criticising the official Egyptian investigation into the disaster. The French body rejects Egypt’s conclusion that a “malicious act” likely brought down the plane. When BEA was shown supposed evidence of explosive traces on the remains of some of the victims two years ago, it suggested that the test results may have been tampered with. It believes that a fire likely brought down the aircraft, basing its conclusion on three pieces of evidence: electronic signals sent from the plane indicating that smoke alarms were activated in the toilet and avionics bays; cockpit voice recordings that show the flight crew discussing an on-board fire; and wreckage that bears signs of high temperatures and soot.
https://www.economist.com/gulliver/2018/07/14/what-really-happened-to-egyptair-flight-804
GULLIVER is not the type of person to kick up a fuss on his travels, least of all when lucky enough to be at the front of the plane. But his patience was pushed to the limit a couple of years ago, when his EgyptAir flight from Cairo to London was blighted by the near-constant stench of cigarette smoke wafting in from the cockpit. Shackled by British meekness and an unwillingness to challenge a flight crew, your asthmatic correspondent suffered the coughs and tried instead to focus on work. Conversations with Egyptian friends later revealed that on-board cigarette smoke is hardly a rarity when flying with the North African flag-carrier. Naturally, anecdotes such as this provide only a snapshot of an airline’s safety standards. But it is a deeply disturbing snapshot given the stalled investigation into EgyptAir Flight 804, which crashed into the Mediterranean Sea during a routine flight from Paris to Cairo in 2016, killing all 66 people aboard. This month, France’s air-crash investigation agency, BEA, took the unusual step of criticising the official Egyptian investigation into the disaster. The French body rejects Egypt’s conclusion that a “malicious act” likely brought down the plane. When BEA was shown supposed evidence of explosive traces on the remains of some of the victims two years ago, it suggested that the test results may have been tampered with. It believes that a fire likely brought down the aircraft, basing its conclusion on three pieces of evidence: electronic signals sent from the plane indicating that smoke alarms were activated in the toilet and avionics bays; cockpit voice recordings that show the flight crew discussing an on-board fire; and wreckage that bears signs of high temperatures and soot.
Unearthing the truth about Flight 804 will not bring back the 66 victims. But it may bring some closure to their relatives. And, if lessons can be learned, it probably will help save lives in future. BEA notes that Egypt ignored requests to conduct further tests relating to the fire theory and then failed to publish a final report into the crash. Without this, it says it has no platform on which “to set out its differences of opinion, as authorised by the international provisions”. This response, like Gulliver's, is too timid. The French body should take its concerns directly to the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), which has the power to ban EgyptAir from the European Union’s skies if it believes the airline’s regulator is failing to abide by international norms for air crash investigations.
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why do EASA need to have this issue brought to their attention before taking any interest/action in the interest of the safety of all?
I would have thought that they should take some form of action if they suspected there was more to this accident than there appears to be on the face of it. In other words, how can they allow a countries self interest, such as Egypt, to supersede that of the wider aviation community?
I would have thought that they should take some form of action if they suspected there was more to this accident than there appears to be on the face of it. In other words, how can they allow a countries self interest, such as Egypt, to supersede that of the wider aviation community?
"Star Alliance Member Airlines 28 airlines working in harmony
Our member airlines include many of the world’s top aviation companies as well as smaller regional airlines. Together, they offer easy connections to almost any destination in the world.Each airline maintains its own individual style and cultural identity, bringing the richness of diversity and multiculturalism to the alliance. At the same time each airline shares a common dedication to the highest standards of safety and customer service."
So why would I fly Lufthansa in preference to Egyptair? They codeshare.........
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: en route
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So here's a question; how resistant is an A-320 cockpit to a dropped cigarette? Back in the day when every Sky God (and half the passengers) smoked, presumably there were dropped cigarette ends all over the place; yet I don't know of cases where an aircraft was brought down by an ensuing fire. But is a relatively modern aircraft designed on the assumption that there will be no such dropped hot coals? Is there an ashtray provided in the cockpit, or do illicit smokers use a plastic cup with a bit of water in the bottom? If such an arrangement was balanced on the top of the cockpit coaming (where the fire/smoke warnings first appeared on the ACARS messages), and tipped or fell over, what would happen if water and a burning cigarette fell down the air-vents below the windshield?
We'll never know, I guess. Although the iPad/phone LiOn fire theory remains a prime suspect, it would be very interesting to hear answers to these questions from someone who knows the A320 flight deck and systems.
Dave - thanks for fixing the link. I cut-and-pasted the article because I suspected the link might not work, but thanks for tidying it up.
We'll never know, I guess. Although the iPad/phone LiOn fire theory remains a prime suspect, it would be very interesting to hear answers to these questions from someone who knows the A320 flight deck and systems.
Dave - thanks for fixing the link. I cut-and-pasted the article because I suspected the link might not work, but thanks for tidying it up.
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: BRS/GVA
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 857
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So here's a question; how resistant is an A-320 cockpit to a dropped cigarette? Back in the day when every Sky God (and half the passengers) smoked, presumably there were dropped cigarette ends all over the place; yet I don't know of cases where an aircraft was brought down by an ensuing fire. But is a relatively modern aircraft designed on the assumption that there will be no such dropped hot coals? Is there an ashtray provided in the cockpit, or do illicit smokers use a plastic cup with a bit of water in the bottom? If such an arrangement was balanced on the top of the cockpit coaming (where the fire/smoke warnings first appeared on the ACARS messages), and tipped or fell over, what would happen if water and a burning cigarette fell down the air-vents below the windshield?
CCTV from the gate at Charles de Gaulle airport showed that Mohamed Mamdouh Ahmed Assem, the co-pilot on flight MS804, put his Apple iPhone 6S, his iPad mini and four bottles of cologne on the dashboard before the Airbus A320 took off for Cairo on May 19,
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: en route
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On that evidence I don't think you're the one who's being 'terminally dumb', habibi. I think it's the bloke who put all that stuff up there in the first place, and his Captain who didn't think it might be a good idea to exercise command authority and tell him not to be so dumb...
I tend towards the cock-up rather than the conspiracy. Sounds to me like this is just the same complacent ignorance and disregard of risk one sees every minute of the day in Cairo traffic, rather than the calculated plot you seem to imply...
Good grief.
I tend towards the cock-up rather than the conspiracy. Sounds to me like this is just the same complacent ignorance and disregard of risk one sees every minute of the day in Cairo traffic, rather than the calculated plot you seem to imply...
Good grief.
Recent report determined the crash was caused by pilot smoking cigarette (supposedly it was allowed in Egyptair), and faulty setting of an oxygen mask (set by maintenance to emergency and emitting oxygen, should have been checked before flight). From what I understand it is a 134-page independent report by French aviation experts, not by Egyptian authorities. Here is a summary:
https://nypost.com/2022/04/27/egypta...irs-cigarette/
I think Italian Corriere Della Sera was the first news outlet reporting, and they have most details. You can Google translate it.
https://www.corriere.it/cronache/22_...5c68e9dd.shtml
https://nypost.com/2022/04/27/egypta...irs-cigarette/
I think Italian Corriere Della Sera was the first news outlet reporting, and they have most details. You can Google translate it.
https://www.corriere.it/cronache/22_...5c68e9dd.shtml
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Schiphol
Posts: 475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<just a webtranslation - only minor rewriting/improving>
--/--
EgyptAir flight crashed in the Mediterranean, six years of silence and no final report
The EgyptAir plane then crashed in the Mediterranean
25 Apr 2022
On 19 May 2016 the Airbus A320 departed from Paris and headed for Cairo with 66 people crashes into the sea. Egypt has not published the results of the investigation. Relatives of the victims: "We want the truth"
Immediately after that flight Quentin Heslouin, a 41-year-old French engineer, wants to take his dad Pierre, 75, to the Abu Simbel archaeological site in Egypt. A trip together, just the two of them. Although where they are seated - the first in seats 31C, the second at 31B - you would have seen little or nothing of the night landing in Cairo: the row is level with the wings. But Quentin and Pierre will never have the chance to see either the metropolis or the ruins that are a World Heritage Site. The plane on which they travel, an EgyptAir Airbus A320 departed from Paris-Charles de Gaulle and headed for the Egyptian capital, sank into the Mediterranean on 19 May 2016, 290 kilometers from Alexandria in Egypt. There are 66 people on board: 56 passengers, 7 crew members and 3 security officers.
The alarms
Before disappearing from the radar - and shortly after leaving Greek airspace - Flight MS804 reports through the automatic system the presence of smoke in the front bathroom and in the lower part of the nose. The pilots do not launch any may days. The Airbus A320 is one of the most used and safest aircraft in the world. Thousands fly every day. But six years after that tragedy, the Egyptian authorities - leading the investigations by jurisdiction - have never produced any final investigation report, as desired by international treaties. Nor is it preliminary.
Foto A debris from EgyptAir's Airbus A320 spotted in the Mediterranean
The news to families
“Since May 2016 we have only had questions and no answers. We want to understand why we lost our loved ones and we still don't know it today, ”Julie Heslouin, elementary school teacher, sister of Quentin and daughter of Pierre, tells Corriere della Sera on the phone. Julie animates the committee of relatives of the victims of flight MS804. The moment when life changed for her she remembers it very well. "In the morning I saw on TV that an EgyptAir plane had crashed, but I didn't immediately connect the fact to the trip of my brother and my father", she reconstructs. "At that point my sister Aude called the emergency number for the family and that's where we found out."
The terrorism alarm
Flight MS804 - with Mohammed Saied Ali Shokair and first officer Mohammed Ahmed Mamdouh Assem at the controls - takes off from "Charles de Gaulle" in Paris at 23.09 on 18 May 2016. It is a particular period in Europe with alarm thresholds at the highest. The autumn before, in the French capital, there were the attacks of the Bataclan and its surroundings (130 dead, 368 injured). On 22 March, a couple of months before the flight, a terrorist group organized the attacks in the Brussels area and at the airport (32 victims, 340 injured). So when the Airbus A320 disappears, the first thought is of a terrorist attack.
Foto The two "black boxes" of the aircraft that sank in 2016
Above Italy
At 00.11 on 19 May the jet enters the Italian airspace above Livigno, a few minutes later it leaves the country from Veneto, then runs along the entire Balkans and continues further south. At 01.24 - they reconstruct the routes of the specialized site Flightradar24 - enter the Greek airspace, but an hour later neither the Greek nor the Egyptian controller managed to get in touch. At 2.30am the Airbus disappears from the radars of both area control centers after veering a couple of times, first to the left, then immediately to the right.
Foto The two pilots at the controls of flight MS804
The seven signals
Shortly before sinking, it turns out later, the plane sent 7 "dispatches" in just 2 seconds through the "Acars", a data communication system with ground stations: they report problems with the anti-ice sensors, the windows of the cockpit, the presence of smoke in the front bathroom and in the avionics compartment (under the cockpit), the stop of the functioning of 2 computer systems crucial for flight and of the one that maneuvers the wings. Neither the commander nor the FO mentions it or asks for assistance.
Foto The Bea detective office hangar near Paris
The start of the investigation
Relations with the Egyptians are immediately problematic. The incident, for Cairo, is an act of terrorism and for this reason the investigation requires the documents to be kept secret. The transalpine authorities find it hard to support these theses. The dynamics of the debris recovered around the impact area, according to Western experts, excludes the explosion at high altitude. The truth lies in the 2 black boxes, found and analyzed in the laboratories near Paris of the French detective agency Bea. But the intergovernmental agreement stipulates that Bea cannot disclose the information because she is not responsible for the investigation. A search warrant from the French judiciary is needed to obtain the data of the black boxes which remain known only to a very few people. «From the Egyptians we received only the condolences of the rite and the remains of our loved ones. Then silence, ”Julie says.
foto The one on the 2016 flight is missing from the list of investigations into accidents in Egypt
No document
Cairo stops confronting Paris a few weeks after the accident, they let the transalpines filter out. Since then, it's just silences, omissions and tensions. Egyptian investigators have never published a preliminary report - which international standards usually indicate to do within 30 days of the incident - or a definitive one. "We have not received any final document on flight MS804, but to find out the reasons we invite you to ask the state that set up the investigation commission," a spokesman for ICAO, the UN civil aviation agency, explained to the Courier.
What does Annex 13 of the Icao regulations on air accidents say
International rules
Annex 13 of the ICAO regulation provides that "the state conducting the investigation must make the final report available to the public as soon as possible or, in any case, within 12 months of the accident". If this is not possible then "the state must publish a provisional report on the occasion of each anniversary of the accident". Which Egypt has never done. The civil aviation authorities and local investigative offices have never responded to the Courier's requests. No comment also from EgyptAir, while the French judicial authority - which has opened a file because there are compatriots among the victims - prefers secrecy.
EgyptAir's maintenance hangar (photo by the airline)
The counter-investigation
A 76-page document, prepared between 2018 and 2019 by 2 French experts, claims that in the previous 5 flights that aircraft recorded about 20 warnings for more or less important technical problems - from the air intake system in the engines to the smoke detection sensors on board - "but were not reported by the pilots and therefore not analyzed by the maintenance of EgyptAir," it says. Egyptian civil aviation denies the existence of technical problems. "Before its penultimate flight (from Cairo to Paris, ed.) The plane should not have taken off without extensive control," write the 2 experts. However, they conclude that it is not possible to identify a root cause.
Foto Some of the faces of the 66 victims of the plane crash in Cairo, Egypt
The French version
A spokesperson for Bea, contacted by Corriere, explains that the official position of the French detective remains that of 6 July 2018. With a press release - at times very harsh - the agency claims that "the most probable hypothesis of the accident is that it was caused by a fire that broke out in the cockpit during the cruise phase, which spread quickly leading to the loss of control of the aircraft ". Bea also stresses that "it is necessary to have a final report of the incident in order to be able to present the differences of opinion to the Egyptians as established by international standards". Having this document also serves to improve safety in the sector as it always happens after every tragedy in the skies.
Foto Relatives of the victims of flight MS804 in front of the Egyptian embassy in Paris
The family members
"6 years later we are torn between hoping to know the truth and feeling tired because things are not going as they should," says Julie Heslouin. Will the truth ever be found out? «I don't know - she replies -, I myself oscillate between optimism and pessimism. The French authorities, whom we have met several times, have listened to us, but the fact is that there is no progress. Without an effective collaboration from Egypt, without being able to hear the people involved in the maintenance, it becomes almost impossible to get to the bottom of this story ".
--/--
EgyptAir flight crashed in the Mediterranean, six years of silence and no final report
The EgyptAir plane then crashed in the Mediterranean
25 Apr 2022
On 19 May 2016 the Airbus A320 departed from Paris and headed for Cairo with 66 people crashes into the sea. Egypt has not published the results of the investigation. Relatives of the victims: "We want the truth"
Immediately after that flight Quentin Heslouin, a 41-year-old French engineer, wants to take his dad Pierre, 75, to the Abu Simbel archaeological site in Egypt. A trip together, just the two of them. Although where they are seated - the first in seats 31C, the second at 31B - you would have seen little or nothing of the night landing in Cairo: the row is level with the wings. But Quentin and Pierre will never have the chance to see either the metropolis or the ruins that are a World Heritage Site. The plane on which they travel, an EgyptAir Airbus A320 departed from Paris-Charles de Gaulle and headed for the Egyptian capital, sank into the Mediterranean on 19 May 2016, 290 kilometers from Alexandria in Egypt. There are 66 people on board: 56 passengers, 7 crew members and 3 security officers.
The alarms
Before disappearing from the radar - and shortly after leaving Greek airspace - Flight MS804 reports through the automatic system the presence of smoke in the front bathroom and in the lower part of the nose. The pilots do not launch any may days. The Airbus A320 is one of the most used and safest aircraft in the world. Thousands fly every day. But six years after that tragedy, the Egyptian authorities - leading the investigations by jurisdiction - have never produced any final investigation report, as desired by international treaties. Nor is it preliminary.
Foto A debris from EgyptAir's Airbus A320 spotted in the Mediterranean
The news to families
“Since May 2016 we have only had questions and no answers. We want to understand why we lost our loved ones and we still don't know it today, ”Julie Heslouin, elementary school teacher, sister of Quentin and daughter of Pierre, tells Corriere della Sera on the phone. Julie animates the committee of relatives of the victims of flight MS804. The moment when life changed for her she remembers it very well. "In the morning I saw on TV that an EgyptAir plane had crashed, but I didn't immediately connect the fact to the trip of my brother and my father", she reconstructs. "At that point my sister Aude called the emergency number for the family and that's where we found out."
The terrorism alarm
Flight MS804 - with Mohammed Saied Ali Shokair and first officer Mohammed Ahmed Mamdouh Assem at the controls - takes off from "Charles de Gaulle" in Paris at 23.09 on 18 May 2016. It is a particular period in Europe with alarm thresholds at the highest. The autumn before, in the French capital, there were the attacks of the Bataclan and its surroundings (130 dead, 368 injured). On 22 March, a couple of months before the flight, a terrorist group organized the attacks in the Brussels area and at the airport (32 victims, 340 injured). So when the Airbus A320 disappears, the first thought is of a terrorist attack.
Foto The two "black boxes" of the aircraft that sank in 2016
Above Italy
At 00.11 on 19 May the jet enters the Italian airspace above Livigno, a few minutes later it leaves the country from Veneto, then runs along the entire Balkans and continues further south. At 01.24 - they reconstruct the routes of the specialized site Flightradar24 - enter the Greek airspace, but an hour later neither the Greek nor the Egyptian controller managed to get in touch. At 2.30am the Airbus disappears from the radars of both area control centers after veering a couple of times, first to the left, then immediately to the right.
Foto The two pilots at the controls of flight MS804
The seven signals
Shortly before sinking, it turns out later, the plane sent 7 "dispatches" in just 2 seconds through the "Acars", a data communication system with ground stations: they report problems with the anti-ice sensors, the windows of the cockpit, the presence of smoke in the front bathroom and in the avionics compartment (under the cockpit), the stop of the functioning of 2 computer systems crucial for flight and of the one that maneuvers the wings. Neither the commander nor the FO mentions it or asks for assistance.
Foto The Bea detective office hangar near Paris
The start of the investigation
Relations with the Egyptians are immediately problematic. The incident, for Cairo, is an act of terrorism and for this reason the investigation requires the documents to be kept secret. The transalpine authorities find it hard to support these theses. The dynamics of the debris recovered around the impact area, according to Western experts, excludes the explosion at high altitude. The truth lies in the 2 black boxes, found and analyzed in the laboratories near Paris of the French detective agency Bea. But the intergovernmental agreement stipulates that Bea cannot disclose the information because she is not responsible for the investigation. A search warrant from the French judiciary is needed to obtain the data of the black boxes which remain known only to a very few people. «From the Egyptians we received only the condolences of the rite and the remains of our loved ones. Then silence, ”Julie says.
foto The one on the 2016 flight is missing from the list of investigations into accidents in Egypt
No document
Cairo stops confronting Paris a few weeks after the accident, they let the transalpines filter out. Since then, it's just silences, omissions and tensions. Egyptian investigators have never published a preliminary report - which international standards usually indicate to do within 30 days of the incident - or a definitive one. "We have not received any final document on flight MS804, but to find out the reasons we invite you to ask the state that set up the investigation commission," a spokesman for ICAO, the UN civil aviation agency, explained to the Courier.
What does Annex 13 of the Icao regulations on air accidents say
International rules
Annex 13 of the ICAO regulation provides that "the state conducting the investigation must make the final report available to the public as soon as possible or, in any case, within 12 months of the accident". If this is not possible then "the state must publish a provisional report on the occasion of each anniversary of the accident". Which Egypt has never done. The civil aviation authorities and local investigative offices have never responded to the Courier's requests. No comment also from EgyptAir, while the French judicial authority - which has opened a file because there are compatriots among the victims - prefers secrecy.
EgyptAir's maintenance hangar (photo by the airline)
The counter-investigation
A 76-page document, prepared between 2018 and 2019 by 2 French experts, claims that in the previous 5 flights that aircraft recorded about 20 warnings for more or less important technical problems - from the air intake system in the engines to the smoke detection sensors on board - "but were not reported by the pilots and therefore not analyzed by the maintenance of EgyptAir," it says. Egyptian civil aviation denies the existence of technical problems. "Before its penultimate flight (from Cairo to Paris, ed.) The plane should not have taken off without extensive control," write the 2 experts. However, they conclude that it is not possible to identify a root cause.
Foto Some of the faces of the 66 victims of the plane crash in Cairo, Egypt
The French version
A spokesperson for Bea, contacted by Corriere, explains that the official position of the French detective remains that of 6 July 2018. With a press release - at times very harsh - the agency claims that "the most probable hypothesis of the accident is that it was caused by a fire that broke out in the cockpit during the cruise phase, which spread quickly leading to the loss of control of the aircraft ". Bea also stresses that "it is necessary to have a final report of the incident in order to be able to present the differences of opinion to the Egyptians as established by international standards". Having this document also serves to improve safety in the sector as it always happens after every tragedy in the skies.
Foto Relatives of the victims of flight MS804 in front of the Egyptian embassy in Paris
The family members
"6 years later we are torn between hoping to know the truth and feeling tired because things are not going as they should," says Julie Heslouin. Will the truth ever be found out? «I don't know - she replies -, I myself oscillate between optimism and pessimism. The French authorities, whom we have met several times, have listened to us, but the fact is that there is no progress. Without an effective collaboration from Egypt, without being able to hear the people involved in the maintenance, it becomes almost impossible to get to the bottom of this story ".
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Schiphol
Posts: 475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<just a webtranslation - only minor rewriting/improving>
--/--
26 Apr 2022
A confidential report of French experts on flight MS804 Paris-Cairo in 2016 with 66 people on board: "Plane crashed in a fire caused by the leak of oxygen"
EgyptAir flight MS804 Paris-Cairo crashed in the Mediterranean on 19 May 2016 with 66 people on board due to a fire that broke out in the cockpit due to the escape of oxygen from the co-pilot's mask - changed 3 days earlier and set to mode "Emergency" - at a time when the commander or FO was probably smoking at 11,278 m AMSL. Six years after that disaster, some of the world's leading experts shed light, perhaps once and for all, on what happened to the A320 of which the Egyptian authorities - responsible for the investigation - have never made known neither a preliminary report nor a definitive one. . A 134-page document - which Corriere della Sera has viewed exclusively - now reconstructs the last moments. The dossier was sent a month ago to the Paris Court of Appeal which is investigating for "manslaughter" because among the victims there are also 12 compatriots.
The route
Flight MS804 takes off from "Charles de Gaulle" in Paris at 11.21 pm on May 18, 2016. At 12.11 am the jet enters the Italian airspace above Livigno, flies over Veneto, then skirts the Balkans and proceeds south. At 2.27 am the Greek controller invites the pilots to get in touch with their Egyptian colleague because the Airbus is entering the airspace of the African country, "but it gets no response," writes the French investigation. At 2.34am the aircraft disappears from the radars of both area control centers after turning first to the left, then immediately to the right and without sounding any alarm. Shortly before the crash, it turns out, the plane sent 7 "dispatches" in 2 seconds: they signal problems with the anti-ice sensors, the cockpit windows, they indicate the presence of smoke in the front bathroom and in the avionics compartment (under the cockpit), the stop to the functioning of 2 systems crucial for flight and wings.
The investigations
On 16 and 17 June, a month later, the 2 "black boxes" are recovered (one records the technical parameters of the flight, the other the audio of the pilots) then sent to France to be examined by the investigative agency Bea, which delivers the results - as established by the rules - to those responsible for the investigation: Cairo. Relations with the Egyptians are problematic. The accident, for them, is an act of terrorism. Paris does not agree: the debris recovered around the impact area excludes the explosion. In autumn 2018, with an unprecedented act, the French judicial police came to the offices of the Bea to collect the data from the "black boxes". To draw up the current report, the experts met 23 times between Aug 2021 and Feb 2022. They put pen to paper that on board that aircraft the pilots tended to smoke a lot (something not forbidden at the time by EgyptAir) and that in previous trips there The plane experienced several technical problems "but none so serious as to require its grounding".
The beginning of the tragedy
On May 16, 2016, a EgyptAir maintenance worker replaced the co-pilot's oxygen mask. The reason is also not clear why Egypt does not cooperate. When putting away the new mask, the attendant leaves the cursor that manages the air flow in the "emergency" position. According to the report, this is the beginning of the chain of events leading to the crash: the Airbus manual writes that in emergency mode "an oxygen leak may occur". This is what happened on board flight MS804. To confirm this are the audio of the pilots.
The traces of oxygen
By separating the soundtracks of one of the black boxes, the "CVR", the experts discover 2 rustles at 2.25 and 24 seconds and at 2.25 and 29 coming from the microphone incorporated in the oxygen mask of the co-pilot who at that moment it is in its compartment. Then 2 more blows, at 2.26 and 11 and at 2.26 and 24. Oxygen itself is not flammable, but promotes combustion. For this reason, immediately after there is a beginning of a fire triggered "by a spark or a flame". The finger is pointed at a lit cigarette, yet another in that aircraft if it is true that 2 months earlier in the cockpit the ashtrays were replaced because they are now too used. The document is unable to establish whether the pilots used a fire extinguisher or not.
The planned checks
"When we enter the cockpit, between the various preliminary checks before taking off, there is also the control of the oxygen flow in the side masks," Daniele Veronelli, commander of A320 and member of the technical department of Anpac (National Association commercial aviation pilots). "A door is lifted and the air flow is tested by pressing a button that protrudes from the compartment. By operating the intercom you can hear the oxygen flowing because each mask is equipped with a microphone ". If the crew is the first to set foot on the plane that day - he continues - "then this type of test is also performed. If, on the other hand, one takes over from colleagues, the check is not foreseen, but it does not detract from the fact that this is done anyway, it only takes a few seconds ".
The alarms
Are there any signs of oxygen on board? "When the levels drop, on one of the screens in front of the pilots the indication of the amount of oxygen turns orange. If you are on the ground you do not take off, if you are in flight you have to decide whether to continue or divert to the nearest airport ". The masks have a minimum of 15 minutes of autonomy. "There is a lever: if it is in the normal position, the oxygen flow is on demand. If, on the other hand, it is in the "emergency" position then this releases the air at a higher pressure to throw out the fumes that could enter in the event of a fire or smoke on board.
The tiredness of the pilots
In the document, among many things, there is a passage on the pilots. Between 01.01 and 1.46 at night - when the aircraft passes between the coast of Croatia and over Athens, Greece - the technicians note, hearing the black boxes, that the commander and FO show signs of fatigue. "A yawn is clearly audible at 1.01 and 53 seconds", it reads. Twelve minutes later "captain and FO clearly express that they both feel tired from this night flight and from lack of sleep." Same concept repeated at 1.46. But the documents compiled, the experts explain, "indicate that rest hours have been respected for both".
The reactions
The Egyptian CAA and EgyptAir did not respond to the Courier's questions. ICAO, the UN civil aviation agency, explains that it has not received any final reports from Cairo. Bea, the French investigative agency, confirms the position expressed in 2018: for them the most probable hypothesis remains "a fire that broke out in the cockpit during the cruise phase which led to the loss of control of the jet". "We have been wanting to understand why we have lost loved ones since May 2016," says Julie Heslouin over the phone, who lost her brother Quentin, 41, and her father Pierre, 75, on the phone. he has long wanted the truth. This document could perhaps provide the answers.
--/--
26 Apr 2022
A confidential report of French experts on flight MS804 Paris-Cairo in 2016 with 66 people on board: "Plane crashed in a fire caused by the leak of oxygen"
EgyptAir flight MS804 Paris-Cairo crashed in the Mediterranean on 19 May 2016 with 66 people on board due to a fire that broke out in the cockpit due to the escape of oxygen from the co-pilot's mask - changed 3 days earlier and set to mode "Emergency" - at a time when the commander or FO was probably smoking at 11,278 m AMSL. Six years after that disaster, some of the world's leading experts shed light, perhaps once and for all, on what happened to the A320 of which the Egyptian authorities - responsible for the investigation - have never made known neither a preliminary report nor a definitive one. . A 134-page document - which Corriere della Sera has viewed exclusively - now reconstructs the last moments. The dossier was sent a month ago to the Paris Court of Appeal which is investigating for "manslaughter" because among the victims there are also 12 compatriots.
The route
Flight MS804 takes off from "Charles de Gaulle" in Paris at 11.21 pm on May 18, 2016. At 12.11 am the jet enters the Italian airspace above Livigno, flies over Veneto, then skirts the Balkans and proceeds south. At 2.27 am the Greek controller invites the pilots to get in touch with their Egyptian colleague because the Airbus is entering the airspace of the African country, "but it gets no response," writes the French investigation. At 2.34am the aircraft disappears from the radars of both area control centers after turning first to the left, then immediately to the right and without sounding any alarm. Shortly before the crash, it turns out, the plane sent 7 "dispatches" in 2 seconds: they signal problems with the anti-ice sensors, the cockpit windows, they indicate the presence of smoke in the front bathroom and in the avionics compartment (under the cockpit), the stop to the functioning of 2 systems crucial for flight and wings.
The investigations
On 16 and 17 June, a month later, the 2 "black boxes" are recovered (one records the technical parameters of the flight, the other the audio of the pilots) then sent to France to be examined by the investigative agency Bea, which delivers the results - as established by the rules - to those responsible for the investigation: Cairo. Relations with the Egyptians are problematic. The accident, for them, is an act of terrorism. Paris does not agree: the debris recovered around the impact area excludes the explosion. In autumn 2018, with an unprecedented act, the French judicial police came to the offices of the Bea to collect the data from the "black boxes". To draw up the current report, the experts met 23 times between Aug 2021 and Feb 2022. They put pen to paper that on board that aircraft the pilots tended to smoke a lot (something not forbidden at the time by EgyptAir) and that in previous trips there The plane experienced several technical problems "but none so serious as to require its grounding".
The beginning of the tragedy
On May 16, 2016, a EgyptAir maintenance worker replaced the co-pilot's oxygen mask. The reason is also not clear why Egypt does not cooperate. When putting away the new mask, the attendant leaves the cursor that manages the air flow in the "emergency" position. According to the report, this is the beginning of the chain of events leading to the crash: the Airbus manual writes that in emergency mode "an oxygen leak may occur". This is what happened on board flight MS804. To confirm this are the audio of the pilots.
The traces of oxygen
By separating the soundtracks of one of the black boxes, the "CVR", the experts discover 2 rustles at 2.25 and 24 seconds and at 2.25 and 29 coming from the microphone incorporated in the oxygen mask of the co-pilot who at that moment it is in its compartment. Then 2 more blows, at 2.26 and 11 and at 2.26 and 24. Oxygen itself is not flammable, but promotes combustion. For this reason, immediately after there is a beginning of a fire triggered "by a spark or a flame". The finger is pointed at a lit cigarette, yet another in that aircraft if it is true that 2 months earlier in the cockpit the ashtrays were replaced because they are now too used. The document is unable to establish whether the pilots used a fire extinguisher or not.
The planned checks
"When we enter the cockpit, between the various preliminary checks before taking off, there is also the control of the oxygen flow in the side masks," Daniele Veronelli, commander of A320 and member of the technical department of Anpac (National Association commercial aviation pilots). "A door is lifted and the air flow is tested by pressing a button that protrudes from the compartment. By operating the intercom you can hear the oxygen flowing because each mask is equipped with a microphone ". If the crew is the first to set foot on the plane that day - he continues - "then this type of test is also performed. If, on the other hand, one takes over from colleagues, the check is not foreseen, but it does not detract from the fact that this is done anyway, it only takes a few seconds ".
The alarms
Are there any signs of oxygen on board? "When the levels drop, on one of the screens in front of the pilots the indication of the amount of oxygen turns orange. If you are on the ground you do not take off, if you are in flight you have to decide whether to continue or divert to the nearest airport ". The masks have a minimum of 15 minutes of autonomy. "There is a lever: if it is in the normal position, the oxygen flow is on demand. If, on the other hand, it is in the "emergency" position then this releases the air at a higher pressure to throw out the fumes that could enter in the event of a fire or smoke on board.
The tiredness of the pilots
In the document, among many things, there is a passage on the pilots. Between 01.01 and 1.46 at night - when the aircraft passes between the coast of Croatia and over Athens, Greece - the technicians note, hearing the black boxes, that the commander and FO show signs of fatigue. "A yawn is clearly audible at 1.01 and 53 seconds", it reads. Twelve minutes later "captain and FO clearly express that they both feel tired from this night flight and from lack of sleep." Same concept repeated at 1.46. But the documents compiled, the experts explain, "indicate that rest hours have been respected for both".
The reactions
The Egyptian CAA and EgyptAir did not respond to the Courier's questions. ICAO, the UN civil aviation agency, explains that it has not received any final reports from Cairo. Bea, the French investigative agency, confirms the position expressed in 2018: for them the most probable hypothesis remains "a fire that broke out in the cockpit during the cruise phase which led to the loss of control of the jet". "We have been wanting to understand why we have lost loved ones since May 2016," says Julie Heslouin over the phone, who lost her brother Quentin, 41, and her father Pierre, 75, on the phone. he has long wanted the truth. This document could perhaps provide the answers.
Last edited by A0283; 27th Apr 2022 at 13:47.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Montreal
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Evidence of frayed insulation around high-pressure oxygen lines in the cabin was, I believe, presented in this forum shortly after the accident. A similar situation was (in the same post) blamed for a tarmac fire of another Egyptair craft a few years earlier.