G-VIIO Las Vegas

[sudden twang]

Dairyground,
the list that you quoted from another poster is not the same sequence as would have been taught to the crew of IO.
SOPs evolve in the light of experience but cannot cater for every eventuality. Statistically speaking it’s best to stop the aircraft apply the park brake make a PA ( I know I know but it’s the BA way) then diagnose the malfunction and call for the memory drill or ECL. The reason is that this “cages the chimp” and manages workload effectively.
IOs problem was the fuel leak unfortunately there isn’t an easy way to diagnose this event from the flight deck except by external observer or as in this case the ensuing fire caused by the leaked fuel. HTH

[RatherBeFlying]

IOs problem was the fuel leak unfortunately there isn’t an easy way to diagnose this event from the flight deck except by external observer or as in this case the ensuing fire caused by the leaked fuel. HTH

The pax and cabin crew were very much aware immediately.

The problem is that their information did not get through to the cockpit until much later in the proceedings.

"Remain seated" while a fire is raging nearby reminds me of the advice given to Grenfell residents to remain in their units

[Capn Bloggs]

Originally Posted by Ratherbeflying

"Remain seated" while a fire is raging nearby reminds me of the advice given to Grenfell residents to remain in their units

Would you rather everybody try to bail out immediately, to be blasted by the engines which probably have disabled the O/W and rear slides (as happened to the starboard slides in this case)?

[JammedStab]

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

Would you rather everybody try to bail out immediately, to be blasted by the engines which probably have disabled the O/W and rear slides (as happened to the starboard slides in this case)?

Or sucked into an engine if they go off the leading edge of some of the smaller aircraft without slides. Like these guys here who could have been sucked in if there was a delay. Evacuated due to a bomb joke...

https://www.express.co.uk/travel/art...ion-air-flight

[RatherBeFlying]

I'd rather see an immediate assessment of the fire situation after stopping which includes checking with cabin crew who are far better placed to see any developing fire.

While certification tests have demonstrated the airframe will tolerate brake and tire fires after a reject for three minutes before ARFF intervention, all bets are off for any other fire situation.

The very first PA should be "Cabin crew report airframe condition"

Failure to respond to the interphone delayed this evacuation. Some day a fire will develop more quickly and a similar delay in assessing for fire will cost lives.

[The Blu Riband]

Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying

"Cabin crew report airframe condition"

Yep.. That'll work...

[double_barrel]

Originally Posted by hans brinker

.......
- both fire handles pull
- push Apu fire bottle
- push number one bottle for both engines
......

As a matter of interest, does firing the extinguisher damage the engine? I assume at the least it prevents it from restarting until some fairly major clean-up has been performed? Is this a factor in the decision-making on the ground ? I guess the owners would not be happy to see their expensive aeroplane with 2 f'd-up engines plus a f'd-up APU without very good reason. Or is it just an inert gas that disappears? In the air can you ever re-start an engine after firing its extinguisher?


So many questions......

[lomapaseo]

As a matter of interest, does firing the extinguisher damage the engine? I assume at the least it prevents it from restarting until some fairly major clean-up has been performed? Is this a factor in the decision-making on the ground ? I guess the owners would not be happy to see their expensive aeroplane with 2 f'd-up engines plus a f'd-up APU without very good reason. Or is it just an inert gas that disappears? In the air can you ever re-start an engine after firing its extinguisher?


So many questions......

What if questions get a little technical in this forum.

Engine extinguishers are external to the spinning bits inside the engine. They are designed to work between the outside of the engine and inside the cowling around the engine. Restart afterwards is a function of getting air pressure to the spinning bits in the engine and the time it takes to do this vs where the aircraft is on-the-ground or in-flight. In a high workload environment you manage the aircraft first

[tdracer]

To elaborate a bit one what Loma posted, the fire extinguishers are intended to put out a fire in the engine nacelle - external to the actual engine - and do not have any effect on the engine itself. Most aircraft use Halon gas as the agent (some new installations use a more environmentally friendly powder similar to baking soda). Firing the extinguisher doesn't damage anything (although the powder based systems require some cleanup afterward).
Pulling the fire handle isolates the engine - fuel, electrical, hydraulic, and pneumatic. If the fire handle is restored to the normal position, the engine can be re-started although there are no procedures to ever do so (and if there really was a fire, you'd have to be either really desperate or daft to re-introduce fuel to the scene of the fire).

[BAengineer]

Originally Posted by double_barrel

As a matter of interest, does firing the extinguisher damage the engine? I assume at the least it prevents it from restarting until some fairly major clean-up has been performed?

Depends on the type of fire extingiushant. If it is Halon or Foam the engine needs washing or steam cleaning, if it is CO2 or Dry powder it is an engine removal.

[procede]

Originally Posted by BAengineer

Depends on the type of fire extingiushant. If it is Halon or Foam the engine needs washing or steam cleaning, if it is CO2 or Dry powder it is an engine removal.

This surprises me. I'd expect foam and especially powder to require a removal. With Halon or CO2, being almost inert gasses, I would not expect much cleaning to be needed at all.

Note that Halon does damage to the ozone layer.

[double_barrel]

Thanks all. Interesting

Originally Posted by procede

This surprises me. I'd expect foam and especially powder to require a removal. With Halon or CO2, being almost inert gasses, I would not expect much cleaning to be needed at all.

I imagine that CO2 could create some thermal stress that would be worthy of checkup.

[RatherBeFlying]

Cabin Crew Fire Training

Currently cabin crew are trained to handle fires inside the cabin. This training should be expanded to cover checking for airframe and engine fires after a reject or landing with engine problems - along with proactive communication of fire status with the flight crew.

They need to be able to distinguish between tire/wheel/brake fires where three minutes is allowed before ARFF arrives - and uncontrolled fuel fed fires demanding immediate evacuation.

Given that interphone calls may not be answered in a high cockpit workload situation, cabin crew need to be able to actuate an "EVACUATE" alarm that would annunciate in the cockpit and display prominently on the EFIS.

It may also be useful to have a "Fire / Smoke Visible" annunciation so that the cockpit crew will be prepared in the case that the cabin crew determines evacuation is necessary.

Underlying these suggestions is considerable history of cockpit crews running checklists while unaware of a serious fire behind.

[OvertHawk]

Why are we discussing the cabin crew needing to advise the cockpit about fires?

I've got a twenty grand car with more exterior camera coverage than Donald Trump. C'mon folks - it's not rocket science to provide external cameras.

[lomapaseo]

Why are we discussing the cabin crew needing to advise the cockpit about fires?

I've got a twenty grand car with more exterior camera coverage than Donald Trump. C'mon folks - it's not rocket science to provide external cameras.

Cameras, don't assess they only deliver current outside events covered in smoke. I would trust the trained FA's for more comprehensive assessments while the pilots are working their check lists

[Capn Bloggs]

All well and good and theoretical, but there were ATCs with a clear view of the large fire and smoke who said nothing apart from "Fire services are on the way".

[wiggy]

RBF

Currently cabin crew are trained to handle fires inside the cabin. This training should be expanded to cover checking for airframe and engine fires after a reject or landing with engine problems - along with proactive communication of fire status with the flight crew.

They need to be able to distinguish between tire/wheel/brake fires where three minutes is allowed before ARFF arrives - and uncontrolled fuel fed fires demanding immediate evacuation.

Not sure what sort of aircraft you are working on or thinking of but a couple of points if I may:

1. From inside an airframe such as a 777 there is very restricted external visibilty. There is Zero/nil/nada visibility of the landing gear from within the fuselage - so absolutely no possibility of cabin crew looking at tire/wheel/brakes etc... and as far as engines are concerned it is only possible to see a portion of the front of the engine nacelles, and if you want a cabin crew member to check engines out they might have to leave their seat, which brings me to :.

2. If you are going to start asking CC to carry out an external check through the cabin windows in the event of an RTO they will have to leave their seats, possibly leaving their door unguarded ( it is often minimum crew these days so often just one crewmember at most if not all doors, even on the wide bodies)... if an EVAC is then signalled from the Flight Deck when the Cabin crew are not at their doors you really are in for a world of hurt or much much worse......

Given that interphone calls may not be answered in a high cockpit workload situation, cabin crew need to be able to actuate an "EVACUATE" alarm that would annunciate in the cockpit and display prominently on the EFIS.

You've effectively got that on the 777 already ( and no doubt on other types) ...the EVAC alarm can be triggered in the Cabin and it gets very noisy on the Flight deck and a big red light flashes...and FWIW at some airlines if not all Cabin crew are briefed that in the event of a clearly catastophic situation they can self intiate evacuation...

[de fumo in flammam]

Not sure about the 777, but on some types, opening the window and sticking your head/body well outside gives a good view of wing and engines, and to some extent, the gear. In the event of a suspected external fire, I would generally do that.

[wiggy]

It's an information gathering option on the T7 as far as wings and engnes......but obviously (??) not for the Cabin crew...

[M.Mouse]

Cabin crew are not selected for their analytical skills. Having seen cabin crew describe to pilots via the interphone the state of a cabin fire during a joint training exercise the last people I would choose to make an assessment of external issues with an aeroplane are cabin crew!

Why is everybody trying to re-invent the wheel? The Las Vegas incident was unusual but nobody died or was seriously hurt. Admittedly the flight crew's handling of the event was not exemplary but bringing in ever more complex procedures and rules to attempt to legislate for every conceivable set of circumstances is utter madness.