BA F/O faces Jail for reporting to work drunk
I have never posted on rumours and news before being only an interested slf.However, I really cannot see what good a prison sentence would serve in this case.
This man has already lost his job and who knows what else.
I noted the magistrate stated as a pilot his actions were worse than driving a car in this condition, I would disagree.Surely in the cockpit his fellow crew members would have prevented him from killing everyone.
This man has already lost his job and who knows what else.
I noted the magistrate stated as a pilot his actions were worse than driving a car in this condition, I would disagree.Surely in the cockpit his fellow crew members would have prevented him from killing everyone.
That sympathy stops when they let it risk the safety of other people.
I agree entirely that fatigue is a much more significant problem but that does not excuse other kinds of breaches.
The suggestion that "his fellow crew-members would have stopped him from killing anyone" is absolute bunkum as an argument in this case - he's onboard to support them as part of the crew not to be a burden to them. What happens if it's him that's needed to step up and stop them killing everyone if they make a mistake, become fatigued or become incapacitated?
As for prison - I don't think that in his direct case it will be necessary but as part of the wider issue I think there is a strong justification for a prison sentence to underline to everyone else in this industry that this is not acceptable.
Once again - This Gentleman has my genuine sympathy if he is suffering from Alcoholism. I personally hope they give him a suspended prison sentence, but a custodial one would be entirely warranted.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Regarding his having a vodka in the morning, it is reported that he came off an overnight positioning flight. That being the case, the vodka was probably a "wind-down" drink (although 8 hours before duty sounds a bit odd. 11 hours would be more in line with crew rest). I also suspect there is a lot more here than meets the eye. 8 hours from a single vodka might leave some residual alcohol, but not enough to be over even the driving limit. So, either porky-pies or there is some underlying medical problem we don't know about. I guess we'll never know the full story.
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The Times reports he spent the day prior to reporting (after the commuting flight) without food or sleep. If true, was he not falling to ensure adequate fitness for duty, in multiple respects, not just alcohol? "Colleagues became concerned about his appearance" - I'm not surprised; Anyone would look a wreck after that, before even starting work.
The Times report on this indicates that Pilot's Solicitor reported his client had a Vodka and Coke at 10:30 in the morning.
Generally, few people drink hard liquor at breakfast, which seems to indicate an underlying drink problem that needs proper treatment.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...-fly-7nsrsn6cx
Generally, few people drink hard liquor at breakfast, which seems to indicate an underlying drink problem that needs proper treatment.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...-fly-7nsrsn6cx
Not saying you aren't right in this case, but I fly mostly at night, get into the hotel at 7am, have an alcoholic drink with my "breakfast" (or as I call it "dinner"). I then go to bed. sleep for 8 hours (if I don't get woken up by housekeeping....). Get up 5pm, go work-out, go for "dinner" around 8pm (or as I like to call it "brunch"), and normally have a pick-up around 10pm. Definitely not everyone's schedule, but also very legal. This guy reported for long-haul so there is way more reverse side of the clock then for the 9-5 crowd.
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Not saying you aren't right in this case, but I fly mostly at night, get into the hotel at 7am, have an alcoholic drink with my "breakfast" (or as I call it "dinner"). I then go to bed. sleep for 8 hours (if I don't get woken up by housekeeping....). Get up 5pm, go work-out, go for "dinner" around 8pm (or as I like to call it "brunch"), and normally have a pick-up around 10pm. Definitely not everyone's schedule, but also very legal. This guy reported for long-haul so there is way more reverse side of the clock then for the 9-5 crowd.
A few years ago I dated a nurse who worked the typical NHS 12.5 hour shifts, starting at 7am or 7pm ish. If she was on nights then her 'supper' at 9am would often involve a 'meat and two veg' meal, plus a glass of wine. If possible eaten outside in the morning sunshine. After some strange looks from the neighbours they took to putting the wine in coffee cups .....
But, equally, when she came over for the weekend after a straight 7 night shifts in a row (only just legal but it was), she was absolutely wrecked and fit for nothing. Think about it, you pilots who are taking your kids to A&E when they've had an accident .. 12.5 hours x 7 = 87.5 hours worked in one week. That's one week, not one month!! And these are people charged with looking after the lives of others.
It was a very boring weekend by the way...
CS
Sorry, medicine and aviation are different. That is not to say you dont need to concentrate in the NHS but it is totally different work, mostly done in one time zone, on static or regularly rotating rostas indoors on the ground. Fatigue does play a role in safety in both industries, but whereas pilots are restricted well below the european working time directive, doctors are actually exempt. Doctors work single handed - no multi crewing which is a very good idea as we have no CRM training! I worked 112 hour weeks for many years in medicine and it was far far easier than flying within EASA limits.
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That's a fair point Radgirl about time zones and being different types of work etc and I'm not trying to pick a fight (just genuinely curious) but .. how do you know that it was 'far, far easier than flying within EASA limits'? How can fatigue be measured or assessed or compared across different industries?? Genuine question... and I don't know the answer
Doctors don't always work alone though .. they have nurses to help them, carry out their instructions etc. And just occasionally to call them on bad decisions because they themselves are too tired to make the right one. As happened with this lady I was seeing who once refused to carry out a doctor's instructions to do xyz. He went off on one and reported her to his consultants group who looked into it. and told him "You owe this nurse a serious apology because what you told her to do would probably have killed that patient". She never did get one..
(My respects to you for working those hours by the way!)
Doctors don't always work alone though .. they have nurses to help them, carry out their instructions etc. And just occasionally to call them on bad decisions because they themselves are too tired to make the right one. As happened with this lady I was seeing who once refused to carry out a doctor's instructions to do xyz. He went off on one and reported her to his consultants group who looked into it. and told him "You owe this nurse a serious apology because what you told her to do would probably have killed that patient". She never did get one..
(My respects to you for working those hours by the way!)
Thanks Cargosales. No offense taken - it is a fascinating subject covering many industries. My personal experience is that fatique was more of an issue and effected my performance and safety to a greater extent in aviation as opposed to medicine. and although there are others around, Many of us in medicine are working such that there are no cross checks and nobody else has the expertise to pick up errors nor to react to them. You correctly point out this is not universal.
Last edited by Radgirl; 9th Jun 2018 at 12:27.
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Today almost everything is all over the web in seconds - compared to Pprune 10 years ago I start to think we need new forums for
Planes running off runway/taxiways
Aircrew arrested for possible intoxication
Passengers attacked by airline/security staff
Drunk passengers
It's not that things are getting worse - I suspect the rates of all of the above were much the same 10, 20, 30 years ago - it's just we know about EVERYTHING these days - whether we like it or not...............
Planes running off runway/taxiways
Aircrew arrested for possible intoxication
Passengers attacked by airline/security staff
Drunk passengers
It's not that things are getting worse - I suspect the rates of all of the above were much the same 10, 20, 30 years ago - it's just we know about EVERYTHING these days - whether we like it or not...............
I think it was far worse in the past.
But my last company saw it as a health problem and paid for the pilot to attend an institute like the priory then give them a useful job on the ground for a year or so on full pay. They were reintroduced back on the line. Always with company medical back up over an extended period.
Maybe BA has changed and had already done this.. if not they should look at their welfare policies.
Maybe BA has changed and had already done this.. if not they should look at their welfare policies.
Doctors work single handed
As for aviation, many single pilot ops.
This guy needs support, rehabilitation and insight so that he may again be productive, however most Airlines will make a big show of pushing offender out of the door pronto and trying to turn it into a "we put passenger safety first" advert and "said person is no longer employed by us".
Thanks flash8
'Multidisciplinary team' is just a PC term whereby individuals' decisions are questioned after the event. nothing has really changed. Unlike multicrew aviation post Windsor where decisions are cross checked at the time. An anaesthetist works on his own most of the time. Nobody can question or is even aware of his judgement until it is immaterial
We do have quite a good system for picking up those addicted to drugs and alcohol with a protocol accepted by the government in some countries such that the individual is stopped from working, given help and then allowed to continue working, albeit sometimes in another specialty. These systems were designed by and operated by doctors, not employers or authorities. No police or court involvement. I have seen more than a few colleagues / trainees continue to work successfully afterwards.
However there is no proscribed alcohol level for being a doctor or nurse. I have never seen anyone breathalyzed. I have never seen anyone picked up for being drunk as opposed to being an ongoing alcoholic. Is it that fellow doctors are more ready to pull the individual up, is it that the presence of a rescue system and no prosecution means the individual is more ready to admit their problem and accept help, or is medicine less safe? I certainly dont know but food for thought
'Multidisciplinary team' is just a PC term whereby individuals' decisions are questioned after the event. nothing has really changed. Unlike multicrew aviation post Windsor where decisions are cross checked at the time. An anaesthetist works on his own most of the time. Nobody can question or is even aware of his judgement until it is immaterial
We do have quite a good system for picking up those addicted to drugs and alcohol with a protocol accepted by the government in some countries such that the individual is stopped from working, given help and then allowed to continue working, albeit sometimes in another specialty. These systems were designed by and operated by doctors, not employers or authorities. No police or court involvement. I have seen more than a few colleagues / trainees continue to work successfully afterwards.
However there is no proscribed alcohol level for being a doctor or nurse. I have never seen anyone breathalyzed. I have never seen anyone picked up for being drunk as opposed to being an ongoing alcoholic. Is it that fellow doctors are more ready to pull the individual up, is it that the presence of a rescue system and no prosecution means the individual is more ready to admit their problem and accept help, or is medicine less safe? I certainly dont know but food for thought
Interesting comparison between medicine and aviation. Seen this book ? It's pretty good and makes the point that medicine could learn some things from aviation:
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I would add that in my wife's NHS trust there are also no planned rest/nutrition breaks during these 12.5hr plus shifts cargosales describes, and with an expectation that staff will be present typically half an hour prior and as required after handover with little roster stability including lates to earlies, often with less than minimum rest. Three of her colleagues are currently participating in tribunals and malpractice enquiries. She also enjoys a wind-down glass of wine at 9am following a nightshift (which I think was the point being made - not all who drink in the morning fall into the 'problem drinker' category). But back to the case of the BA F/O, I don't believe BA is a company that would be seen to be
however in this case, wasn't there an element of bringing the company into disrepute as a consequence of reporting by the media following the event?
making a big show of pushing offender out of the door
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
however in this case, wasn't there an element of bringing the company into disrepute as a consequence of reporting by the media following the event?
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If your working 112 hours week in week out your most likely to suffer from fatigue. If your working to EASA (how many times do Pilots work to the limits e.g. of FDP / duty hours etc) your most likely to suffer from sleepiness. There is a big difference imho.
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Radgirl,
Interesting comparison between medicine and aviation. Seen this book ? It's pretty good and makes the point that medicine could learn some things from aviation:
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Checkl.../dp/0801478294
Interesting comparison between medicine and aviation. Seen this book ? It's pretty good and makes the point that medicine could learn some things from aviation:
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Checkl.../dp/0801478294
I was quite impressed and told him so at a post op check a week later. I said it sounded like a crew brief. Turns out they had been cross training on the flight crew approach to CRM for use in the operating theater. Happens when you use university medical centers.
Ian W sadly dont believe a word a surgeon tells you
Some years ago a doctor from Africa showed the large number of errors being made in operating theatres - wrong operation, wrong patient, wrong site. He worked tirelessly to get most nations to introduce what is called the WHO check list. We all use it. Fantastic
The only difference is that outside the US we tend to think of surgeons as just doctors not god so it is usually the anaesthetist, who is able to talk to god, who leads the checklist and tells everyone what to do
Seriously, this simple check list has made a massive difference in terms of reducing risk. I totally agree that, although there are major differences between aviation and medicine, the latter can learn a a lot from the former. One of the most important is confidential reporting such as CHIRP - in medicine you can only report an error by going public, and often get crucified.
Some years ago a doctor from Africa showed the large number of errors being made in operating theatres - wrong operation, wrong patient, wrong site. He worked tirelessly to get most nations to introduce what is called the WHO check list. We all use it. Fantastic
The only difference is that outside the US we tend to think of surgeons as just doctors not god so it is usually the anaesthetist, who is able to talk to god, who leads the checklist and tells everyone what to do
Seriously, this simple check list has made a massive difference in terms of reducing risk. I totally agree that, although there are major differences between aviation and medicine, the latter can learn a a lot from the former. One of the most important is confidential reporting such as CHIRP - in medicine you can only report an error by going public, and often get crucified.
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Radgirl, I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the WHO checklist but having done a quick Google it makes a lot of sense..
Kind of like when the surgeon came round to have a chat to my (then) partner about the op she was about to undergo. And explained that they wanted to make damned sure they had got it absolutely right (and didn't remove the wrong kidney or bit or whatever) so there was a cross check in the operating theatre so they looked for the 'big blue cross'. And he then got out a marker pen and drew a large blue cross. On one of her boobs! And he agreed with her that that was indeed the problem area (and the correct boob) which needed to be operated on.
Momentarily embarrassing, yes. Lifetime of anguish and unecessary lawsuits - avoided!!
Kind of like when the surgeon came round to have a chat to my (then) partner about the op she was about to undergo. And explained that they wanted to make damned sure they had got it absolutely right (and didn't remove the wrong kidney or bit or whatever) so there was a cross check in the operating theatre so they looked for the 'big blue cross'. And he then got out a marker pen and drew a large blue cross. On one of her boobs! And he agreed with her that that was indeed the problem area (and the correct boob) which needed to be operated on.
Momentarily embarrassing, yes. Lifetime of anguish and unecessary lawsuits - avoided!!
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Radgirl, I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the WHO checklist but having done a quick Google it makes a lot of sense..
Kind of like when the surgeon came round to have a chat to my (then) partner about the op she was about to undergo. And explained that they wanted to make damned sure they had got it absolutely right (and didn't remove the wrong kidney or bit or whatever) so there was a cross check in the operating theatre so they looked for the 'big blue cross'. And he then got out a marker pen and drew a large blue cross. On one of her boobs! And he agreed with her that that was indeed the problem area (and the correct boob) which needed to be operated on.
Momentarily embarrassing, yes. Lifetime of anguish and unecessary lawsuits - avoided!!
Kind of like when the surgeon came round to have a chat to my (then) partner about the op she was about to undergo. And explained that they wanted to make damned sure they had got it absolutely right (and didn't remove the wrong kidney or bit or whatever) so there was a cross check in the operating theatre so they looked for the 'big blue cross'. And he then got out a marker pen and drew a large blue cross. On one of her boobs! And he agreed with her that that was indeed the problem area (and the correct boob) which needed to be operated on.
Momentarily embarrassing, yes. Lifetime of anguish and unecessary lawsuits - avoided!!