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aircraft reg 5Y-CAC missing in Kenya today?

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aircraft reg 5Y-CAC missing in Kenya today?

Old 10th Jun 2018, 02:18
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Brat View Post
................ if the crew were not Instrument rated and trying to maintain VFR then it is a very sad story that has unfortunately been done before............
A scheduled, commercial flight unable to fly IFR? Is that possible?
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 02:34
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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A scheduled, commercial flight unable to fly IFR? Is that possible?
In Africa ....anything is possible.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 03:29
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by double_barrel View Post
A scheduled, commercial flight unable to fly IFR? Is that possible?
dont listen to him. Another armchair Muindi,
expert astronaut vomiting regulations or minutiae.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 11:07
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Allow me to explain for the non-pilot lurkers.
There are 2 sets of rules which MUST be obeyed.
VFR (Visual flight rules) is the default requiring good visbility, in sight of the ground and remaining clear of cloud.
For suitably qualified pilots an alternative is available. IFR (Instrument flight rules) allow flight by reference to instruments rather than the ground. The rules are complex, requiring basically reference to suitable aids under the control of an air traffic controller.
If you cannot comply with IFR, in this case by remaining above the MSA (minimum safe altitude) you MUST obey VFR.
In most of Africa radio coverage limits the availability of IFR capability to high flying aircraft and near major airports.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 13:49
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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I was flying in the RHS as a passenger in a charter from Shompole to Wilson a few years ago. We were at 8000 ft, over a fairly solid deck, and my pilot was looking for a hole to descend. I was more than a little surprised that he had no IFR rating -- according to him, IFR ratings in his company (Yellow Wings) were rare and not a whole lot of use because (as stated elsewhere) the ground equipment just isn't there.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 13:55
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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I was more than a little surprised that he had no IFR rating -- according to him, IFR ratings in his company (Yellow Wings) were rare and not a whole lot of use because (as stated elsewhere) the ground equipment just isn't there.

True, but are pilots IMC rated? It might not help with navigation, but it will help if finding yourself caught out in cloud and and trying to keep blue side up. Having said that I would expect any VFR pilot to get very active 'neck hairs' if losing sight of visual references in high terrain and that SA would be ultra-alert.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 14:25
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Either you have an instrument rating or you dont - simple.
All pilots are taught to use their basic instruments such as Altimeter and Artificial Horizon to get out of the trouble that they should not have gotten into. If you run out of visibility turn around and go home or maybe find a field to land in until the weather blows over.

Continuing a VFR flight into IMC is one of the biggest killers in general aviation.

As mentioned by others, it is very rare to find pilots with a current instrument rating hacking around the game reserves etc because the required infrastructure does not exist.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 19:10
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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my 0.2 cents:

first of all, lets make a difference with local flying rules when it comes to IFR and VFR and pilots rating. Even if most of the authorized commercial charter flying is in VFR, many air operators require Instrument Rated pilots because you get caught in IMC very often on the highlands.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 20:35
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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A possible problem of course occurring if the Pilot/s were IMC rated but had been mistakenly given a vector/radial and altitude/FL that took them into that hillside. If this was the case it will be on the radio tapes.

I was in Saudi when a PIA coming out of Jeddah en-route Karachi had a galley fire shortly after departure. A collegue was in the air at the time and from what he told me it seems the PIA crew asked for and was given an emergency descent to 4,000’ and return to Jeddah.

On the return the fire and smoke were such that the crew asked if there was a closer airport. There was, Taif, but apparently remained at their descent altitude. The aircraft impacted high ground 30 short of Taif airport which is 4,800’.

There was confusion and an on-going emergency and it was not completely clear if the PIA was given a higher alt, or was simply allowed to proceed direct at whatever alt he was at, or the fire was such that they lost control before they got there.

The thing is in a high stress situation a vital point like an MSA can be forgotten by either pilot or controller and if in cloud/night/smoke CFIT can occur.

From the pictures of the wreckage it would appear that impact/death would have been sudden.
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 07:30
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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No idea how much truth is in this article..https://kenyalivenews.com/shocking-r...x-in-aberdares
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 13:35
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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So much speculation based on such a low opinion of Africa >.<

Enough guys.

In kenya, to fly in RPT ops you must be instrument rated. Likewise, for you to be rated on the Van, you must hold a current IR.

Radio aids in Africa might be challenge, but did anyone bother to check the NOTAMs to see if that way the case before running to post on PPRuNe? You need to be responsible with your speculation. The media takes what is on here as 100% true and report on it further traumatising family and loved ones of the deceased.

High terrain, bad weather and low light makes for challenging flying for anyone in an unpressurized aircraft. Rather than condemn the country or the crew, how about we wait for the official report?

This, coming from a current caravan jockey operating in the same environment.
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 13:55
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Well said kibz2005.

One of the things that’s as unreliable as the weather in many parts of Africa (and many other continents) is the press and too many people jump on any morsel of unsubstantiated speculation as fact, just because ‘it was on the news’ or ‘it was in the paper’. We’ve all seen too many so-called experts pontificating after an accident but whilst it is evident that this aircraft flew into the ground, the reason for that happening is unknown until such time as some sort of official report is forthcoming.
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Old 11th Jun 2018, 17:04
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Could I ask kibz2005 if it's normal for Caravans to fly at 13000 ft or thereabouts on this type of flight? With the bad weather might it have been possible to follow the Rift Valley at a lower level until abeam the Ngong Hills and drop in to Wilson that way? It's a long time since I learnt to fly out there so I might have got my geography wrong.
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 09:30
  #34 (permalink)  
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No idea how much truth is in this article
Total BS. ATC did not direct her to go to KNJK, it was her request from the start , , weak signals? , she was going towards a RNAV point ! .. etc.. etc.. sensationalism at its worst, especially the title .
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 09:51
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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If it was indeed her request to route direct AVINA then she should at least have been aware of the MSA and terrain she would be flying over, as should any jockey, of any equipment, flying in Kenya, at any time.

There are regular periods of bad weather in the year, unprecedent rain’s this year, known areas of high ground. Basic airmanship and terrain/situational awareness are the very minimum requirements to sit in the cockpit just for solo flight, let alone commercial operations.

Have just seen a video of the wreckage taken from the air, and that is very jagged high ground. It looks quite likely that she was IMC to have flown into the impact point as they did.

Very sad for all concerned. Yet another CFIT that should never have happened.
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 11:26
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Total BS. ATC did not direct her to go to KNJK, it was her request from the start , , weak signals? , she was going towards a RNAV point ! .. etc.. etc.. sensationalism at its worst, especially the title .
+1. Never have seen more BS in a single article. Fuel dump vent on a Cessna ??? Could not climb higher because jets above her ??? ATC responsible for terrain clearance on a VFR flight???

A reason might be that something went wrong with her Bat powered GPS like a Garmin or built in unit. You can go about 14.000 feet for half an hour which is not a big human performance problem if it’s daytime and you are decent adapted to high terrain.
Flying VFR on top is legal too. So it looks like CFIT because SA was lost. Hope that there is a decent official report, because the holes lining up in the cheese are always a good learning experience.
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 14:07
  #37 (permalink)  
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EDLB :
A reason might be that something went wrong with her Bat powered GPS like a Garmin
Could be, there are lots of photos of her on Internet, some in a Caravan cockpit, with a small hand held Garmin AERA500 strapped on of top of the glareshield. But not sure how old the photos are and if it was the one in question though.
Looks like the preliminary report will be out soon, whether it says a lot remains to be seen , but at least the facts will be public.
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 15:38
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
EDLB :
Could be, there are lots of photos of her on Internet, some in a Caravan cockpit, with a small hand held Garmin AERA500 strapped on of top of the glareshield. But not sure how old the photos are and if it was the one in question though.
Looks like the preliminary report will be out soon, whether it says a lot remains to be seen , but at least the facts will be public.
Is it really possible that a flight is dependent on a couple of AA batteries?

But I don't quite understand the comments along the lines 'IFR is of little use in Kenya because there are no reliable navaids'. In my (marine) world there have been no ground-based radio navaids for a decade or more. But we navigate 'blind' perfectly well by several techniques - notably (redundant) GPS-driven plotters, depth (your altitude) and radar. Surely IFR means the ability to fly in zero visibility using instruments to aviate and navigate, but these days why (in mid flight) would that depend on ground-based navaids ?
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Old 18th Jun 2018, 15:57
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Those “mobile” GPS like a Garmin 496 have a internal Lithium battery and most times a 12V plug from the airplane that keeps it charged. So you have two energy sources and the battery alone will normally last longer than your fuel. Sure you have the maps and you better mark some positions with time, but if the weather goes south and there is some additional distraction it is easy to get your position wrong. There is a reason that in the USA you still can find mountains marked with large white numbers and airports names in large letters on the roof.

Ask how many pilots with some VFR single pilot time got at some time in their cariere their position wrong at least once.
Normaly no big deal as long as you do CCC. (communicate confess comply)
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 01:57
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EDLB View Post
Those “mobile” GPS like a Garmin 496 have a internal Lithium battery and most times a 12V plug from the airplane that keeps it charged. So you have two energy sources and the battery alone will normally last longer than your fuel. Sure you have the maps and you better mark some positions with time, but if the weather goes south and there is some additional distraction it is easy to get your position wrong. There is a reason that in the USA you still can find mountains marked with large white numbers and airports names in large letters on the roof.

Ask how many pilots with some VFR single pilot time got at some time in their cariere their position wrong at least once.
Normaly no big deal as long as you do CCC. (communicate confess comply)
if you are flying VFR you better remain clear of clouds, or you will eventually become part of the landscape.
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