KLM Pilot jailed in Norway for alcohol intake on night stop
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA
Age: 78
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread is interesting in that it has raised an old fear of flying. After working for my company overseas for several years, I was asked to sign a zero tolerance agreement upon my return to work in America. Not a small company, one of what we in America call the DOW 30 - the 30 companies that determine how our stock market is performing. So as an engineer, we designing the stuff have a zero limit (which I see from above is really 0.02 as in the error range) but those flying are saying that's too low. And our facility had a special building in place where outside testers came randomly for testing - like I mentioned, we all had to agree to it as a requirement for designing and building stuff where an error could mean life or death.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In the desert
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think anybody is questioning the 0.02 limit for flying - it's more that you must have less than 0.02 at least 8 hours before where in other countries it's just at the start of your duty you must be below 0.02.
Manadasystem claimed you have to be below 0.02 8 hours before flying. He gave no references nor examples of it being enforced. By comparison the actual regulations are quoted eg posts 25 and 54 and say nothing of the sort. Where is the evidence???? and how could they enforce it???? I would just say I felt ill and was going to call in sick......
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Manadasystem claimed you have to be below 0.02 8 hours before flying. He gave no references nor examples of it being enforced. By comparison the actual regulations are quoted eg posts 25 and 54 and say nothing of the sort. Where is the evidence???? and how could they enforce it???? I would just say I felt ill and was going to call in sick......
You don’t need a passport to travel inside Schengen. Odd are this guy would leave the country on the first flight had the police let him go. That is why they kept him. If the test shows he was under the limit, they will let him go.
If he was over, they will fry him.
No, I don’t think the UK police would act any different if they caught a foreign pilot over the limit in the UK.
SkyGod
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
1 Post
Manadasystem claimed you have to be below 0.02 8 hours before flying. He gave no references nor examples of it being enforced. By comparison the actual regulations are quoted eg posts 25 and 54 and say nothing of the sort. Where is the evidence???? and how could they enforce it???? I would just say I felt ill and was going to call in sick......
. According to our company info the rule in the Norway is that you have to be at the 0.02 limit 8 hours before your duty starts which is a rather
different regulation to the other countries.
different regulation to the other countries.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Spain
Age: 76
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am I being srupid here, but as someone who used to spend over 200 nights a year in hotels, does it not seem reasonable for a chap to have a few bevvies to help him sleep.
If a chap had no alcohol, and spent the whole night tossing and turning, with little sleep, is there some gizmo they could stick in his mouth to tell them he wasn't fit to fly? Of course not.
Please can we try to be reasonable about this and not be beholden to the thought police. I fully appreciate that we do not want pilots who are 'drunk' flying, but there must be a middle ground here somewhere?
CB
If a chap had no alcohol, and spent the whole night tossing and turning, with little sleep, is there some gizmo they could stick in his mouth to tell them he wasn't fit to fly? Of course not.
Please can we try to be reasonable about this and not be beholden to the thought police. I fully appreciate that we do not want pilots who are 'drunk' flying, but there must be a middle ground here somewhere?
CB
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Age: 48
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In Norway a suspect goes to custody for max 3 days awaiting trial, anything after that one have to be sentenced by a judge/court and in this case the poor KLM pilot was deemed a flight risk if let loos, so he got 2 weeks behind bars just to make sure he would stay and await trial.
This is the most stupid thing I've read in a long time. First of all, they know who he is and where he lives. It's not a random tourist. Second, even IF he would be able to flee the country, The Netherlands has an extradition treaty with Norway as part of the Vienna Treaty. Third, even IF for some reason, he would be able to flee AND convince the Dutch court system to not extradite him, he would be tried in The Netherlands. And from what I've seen, prisons in Norway are a lot better than prisons in The Netherlands.
He has not been sentenced;
The results of his blood test are not publicly available yet;
Even if he was somewhat over the legal limit, there could be mitigating circumstances such as the body creating alcohol;
None of the actual facts are known to you, and yet you throw him under the bus.
If you hold any type of airman certificate: shame on you. If you do not hold any type of airman certificate: shame on you.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Not being allowed to leave the country after a pilot's alleged alcohol offense is nothing new. The Virgin pilot who was removed from his plane after screeners smelled booze on his breath at IAD was kept in the U.S. because the Loudon County Traffic Court judge considered him a flight risk:
Pilot accused of being drunk held on $25,000 bond
12/22/2003
By CANDACE SMITH / Associated Press
A pilot accused of showing up drunk to fly a plane from Washington to London was ordered held Monday on $25,000 bond and told not to leave the country.
[redacted] was dressed in an orange jail jumpsuit when he appeared on a closed circuit television link from jail, where he has been since late Friday, when he was arrested at Washington Dulles International Airport.
Security screeners alerted Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority Police after detecting alcohol on [redacted]'s breath, an airport spokeswoman said. Officers escorted [redacted] off the plane and questioned him at the airport before charging him with attempting to operate an aircraft while under the influence of an intoxicating drug or alcohol.
An authority officer testified he approached [redacted] about two hours before his plane's scheduled departure. The officer said no passengers were aboard, and the flight attendants were readying the cabin.
[redacted], 55, spent the weekend at the Loudoun County Adult Detention Center in Leesburg, about 40 miles west of Washington, D.C. The 14-year Virgin Atlantic veteran remained suspended by the airline, which said [redacted] is a U.S. citizen who lives in London and had a spotless record with the company.
[redacted]'s lawyers tried to persuade Loudoun County Traffic Court Judge James Forsythe to allow their client to return home.
"He's not doing well. He has a medical condition — a heart condition," lawyer Thomas Hill told the judge, adding [redacted] needed to see his cardiologist in London. Outside court Hill declined to elaborate about the heart condition.
"He's a model of stability in terms of his life," Hill told the judge. Hill said his client has been married 25 years, and his wife and two children live in London. "He's not a flight risk at all."
Prosecutors were against any bond because [redacted] lives overseas.
"Once a defendant has crossed that border it is very difficult to get them to come back," said Forsythe, who moved the case to the criminal division.
12/22/2003
By CANDACE SMITH / Associated Press
A pilot accused of showing up drunk to fly a plane from Washington to London was ordered held Monday on $25,000 bond and told not to leave the country.
[redacted] was dressed in an orange jail jumpsuit when he appeared on a closed circuit television link from jail, where he has been since late Friday, when he was arrested at Washington Dulles International Airport.
Security screeners alerted Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority Police after detecting alcohol on [redacted]'s breath, an airport spokeswoman said. Officers escorted [redacted] off the plane and questioned him at the airport before charging him with attempting to operate an aircraft while under the influence of an intoxicating drug or alcohol.
An authority officer testified he approached [redacted] about two hours before his plane's scheduled departure. The officer said no passengers were aboard, and the flight attendants were readying the cabin.
[redacted], 55, spent the weekend at the Loudoun County Adult Detention Center in Leesburg, about 40 miles west of Washington, D.C. The 14-year Virgin Atlantic veteran remained suspended by the airline, which said [redacted] is a U.S. citizen who lives in London and had a spotless record with the company.
[redacted]'s lawyers tried to persuade Loudoun County Traffic Court Judge James Forsythe to allow their client to return home.
"He's not doing well. He has a medical condition — a heart condition," lawyer Thomas Hill told the judge, adding [redacted] needed to see his cardiologist in London. Outside court Hill declined to elaborate about the heart condition.
"He's a model of stability in terms of his life," Hill told the judge. Hill said his client has been married 25 years, and his wife and two children live in London. "He's not a flight risk at all."
Prosecutors were against any bond because [redacted] lives overseas.
"Once a defendant has crossed that border it is very difficult to get them to come back," said Forsythe, who moved the case to the criminal division.
SkyGod
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
1 Post
This is the most stupid thing I've read in a long time. First of all, they know who he is and where he lives. It's not a random tourist. Second, even IF he would be able to flee the country, The Netherlands has an extradition treaty with Norway as part of the Vienna Treaty. Third, even IF for some reason, he would be able to flee AND convince the Dutch court system to not extradite him, he would be tried in The Netherlands. And from what I've seen, prisons in Norway are a lot better than prisons in The Netherlands.
He got caught with his pants down you say? Do you even know the facts of the case? First you talk about him already being sentenced, now you put another nail in his coffin.
He has not been sentenced;
The results of his blood test are not publicly available yet;
Even if he was somewhat over the legal limit, there could be mitigating circumstances such as the body creating alcohol;
None of the actual facts are known to you, and yet you throw him under the bus.
If you hold any type of airman certificate: shame on you. If you do not hold any type of airman certificate: shame on you.
He got caught with his pants down you say? Do you even know the facts of the case? First you talk about him already being sentenced, now you put another nail in his coffin.
He has not been sentenced;
The results of his blood test are not publicly available yet;
Even if he was somewhat over the legal limit, there could be mitigating circumstances such as the body creating alcohol;
None of the actual facts are known to you, and yet you throw him under the bus.
If you hold any type of airman certificate: shame on you. If you do not hold any type of airman certificate: shame on you.
As for being caught with the pants down, yes, so far it does not look good. I am surprised the official % of blood alcohol is not out yet. It should not take 4-5 days, more like 5 minutes.
The sentence is temporary: You have to have a judge sentence you for more than 3 days in custody. Hence some judge in this case deemed him a flight risk and did a temporary 2 week sentence awaiting trial.
This has been mentioned a few times already. Not sure why you are confused on this?
(If the police could toss you in jail for 2 weeks without a judge involved, you would be in a banana republic)
As for holding an Airman’s Certificate, Yes, got a few of those, been flying commercial for 37 years and had a few situations like the above.
SkyGod
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
1 Post
. I'd say Tower Dog probably has more time in the left seat over the outer marker than you've got in the air.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Age: 48
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not sure what drugs you are on Tiger, but if you are still able to read, go back and read it again: Nobody threw the poor guy under the bus.
As for being caught with the pants down, yes, so far it does not look good. I am surprised the official % of blood alcohol is not out yet. It should not take 4-5 days, more like 5 minutes.
The sentence is temporary: You have to have a judge sentence you for more than 3 days in custody. Hence some judge in this case deemed him a flight risk and did a temporary 2 week sentence awaiting trial.
This has been mentioned a few times already. Not sure why you are confused on this?
(If the police could toss you in jail for 2 weeks without a judge involved, you would be in a banana republic)
As for holding an Airman’s Certificate, Yes, got a few of those, been flying commercial for 37 years and had a few situations like the above.
As for being caught with the pants down, yes, so far it does not look good. I am surprised the official % of blood alcohol is not out yet. It should not take 4-5 days, more like 5 minutes.
The sentence is temporary: You have to have a judge sentence you for more than 3 days in custody. Hence some judge in this case deemed him a flight risk and did a temporary 2 week sentence awaiting trial.
This has been mentioned a few times already. Not sure why you are confused on this?
(If the police could toss you in jail for 2 weeks without a judge involved, you would be in a banana republic)
As for holding an Airman’s Certificate, Yes, got a few of those, been flying commercial for 37 years and had a few situations like the above.
That said, I reread your comments again. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm reading it as text without intonation, but your writing is received on my end as unnecessary harsh at this time. Even in the post above, you talked about the man being sentenced twice. He has not been sentenced. He is presumed innocent until proven guilty. The only thing that the judge ruled on was that there is sufficient evidence to hold the man while the investigation continues. See also this Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remand_(detention)
Originally Posted by Airbubba
The Virgin pilot who was removed from his plane after screeners smelled booze on his breath at IAD was kept in the U.S. because the Loudon County Traffic Court judge considered him a flight risk:
As for being caught with the pants down: this is the message I object the most to. He was not caught with the pants down. All we know at this time is that the breathalyzer registered a value which is slightly higher than legally allowed. There are many reasons why this could occur, and there is a reason why a blood test is required afterwards. Even if the blood test shows similar values, there could be medical reasons for the elevated levels of alcohol.
Even if this was caused by willful consuming alcoholic beverages: pretty much everyone will agree that this most likely would not have impacted flight safety in any way. To me it sounds like the equivalent of doing 70 on a 65mph freeway.
I guess that all I'm saying here is: give the man the benefit of the doubt until proven guilty, and don't hang him out to dry as if he was sentenced to life in prison already.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning flying impaired in any way. I don't drink or do drugs at all.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Europe
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I feel the need to clarify a few things regarding the Norwegian law on this.
1. You are not allowed to have a blood concentration higher than 0.02% at the start of your flight duty period (planning stage).
2. You are not allowed to consume alcohol for a period of 8 hours prior to a flight duty period.
3. There is no such rule that you must be under the legal limit 8 hours prior to a flight duty period!
4. Most Norwegian operators impose their own stricter policy of no consumption the last 12 hours prior to flight duty. This is only for internal diciplining (most likely sacking), but not of any concern regarding punishment by law.
5. It is only if you know you have messed up, and should understand that it will lead to an investigation of some sort, that you shall not drink any alcohol for 6 hours after the incident. This also applies for driving cars. There was a case last year about a helicopter pilot who crashed, and who was drunk when the authorities arrived. He claimed he had been so shook up and disturbed by the incident that he had concumed large amounts of alcohol afterwards. He, I believe, was actually aquitted and released by the court of appeal, after an initial sentencing earlier.
Norway is also notorious for holding people on remand awaiting trial, and they have several times been reported by human rights organizations to the ECHR in Strasbourg for the practice.
1. You are not allowed to have a blood concentration higher than 0.02% at the start of your flight duty period (planning stage).
2. You are not allowed to consume alcohol for a period of 8 hours prior to a flight duty period.
3. There is no such rule that you must be under the legal limit 8 hours prior to a flight duty period!
4. Most Norwegian operators impose their own stricter policy of no consumption the last 12 hours prior to flight duty. This is only for internal diciplining (most likely sacking), but not of any concern regarding punishment by law.
5. It is only if you know you have messed up, and should understand that it will lead to an investigation of some sort, that you shall not drink any alcohol for 6 hours after the incident. This also applies for driving cars. There was a case last year about a helicopter pilot who crashed, and who was drunk when the authorities arrived. He claimed he had been so shook up and disturbed by the incident that he had concumed large amounts of alcohol afterwards. He, I believe, was actually aquitted and released by the court of appeal, after an initial sentencing earlier.
Norway is also notorious for holding people on remand awaiting trial, and they have several times been reported by human rights organizations to the ECHR in Strasbourg for the practice.
SkyGod
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Palm Coast, Florida, USA
Age: 67
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
1 Post
[QUOTE
Norway is also notorious for holding people on remand awaiting trial, and they have several times been reported by human rights organizations to the ECHR in Strasbourg for the practice.
I had had no idea that Norway had such a record so I tried a quick google search and found something, but not my cup of tea analyzing reuslts.
The Court dealt with 132 applications concerning Norway in 2017, of which 129 were declared inadmissible or struck out. It delivered 3 judgments (concerning 3 applications), one of which found at least one violation of the European Convention on Human Rights.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let us backtrack this «little over the limit» and «not so serious» incident.
I will use the numbers in thousands, ie the limit is 0.2. Just to avoid a lot of 0.0xx.
He was apparently a little over the limit. Let’s say he tested 0.3. An adult burns off roughly 0.15 each hour. Stopped drinking (hopefully) 8 hours before duty. He was 1.2 + 0.3 = 1.5 8 hours before duty. That equals drunk 8 hours before duty.
You may fall asleep faster when under the influence, but your sleep quality is less.
There is a good chance he was feeling a bit under the weather when he went to work. And a bit dizzy since he was not sober.
I am a drinker so I know how I would have felt.
If the blood sample confirms the initial test, I don’t think this is a minor case. He either has an alcohol problem, or just had too much to drink the night before.
I think he is right where he should be, but the blood test should have been done by know.
I will use the numbers in thousands, ie the limit is 0.2. Just to avoid a lot of 0.0xx.
He was apparently a little over the limit. Let’s say he tested 0.3. An adult burns off roughly 0.15 each hour. Stopped drinking (hopefully) 8 hours before duty. He was 1.2 + 0.3 = 1.5 8 hours before duty. That equals drunk 8 hours before duty.
You may fall asleep faster when under the influence, but your sleep quality is less.
There is a good chance he was feeling a bit under the weather when he went to work. And a bit dizzy since he was not sober.
I am a drinker so I know how I would have felt.
If the blood sample confirms the initial test, I don’t think this is a minor case. He either has an alcohol problem, or just had too much to drink the night before.
I think he is right where he should be, but the blood test should have been done by know.
Rubbish. First we do not know the actual blood level. These very low levels measured on non evidential machines are not that accurate. Second we do not know his ethnicity, his normal alcohol consumption, whether he had eaten before/ after, any concommitant disease or infections etc etc. So he may have had a blood level equivalent to a couple of large glasses of wine 8 hours before (most people would not consider that drunk!) or he may not have.
Rubbish. First we do not know the actual blood level. These very low levels measured on non evidential machines are not that accurate. Second we do not know his ethnicity, his normal alcohol consumption, whether he had eaten before/ after, any concommitant disease or infections etc etc. So he may have had a blood level equivalent to a couple of large glasses of wine 8 hours before (most people would not consider that drunk!) or he may not have.
Per
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 60 north
Age: 59
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rad Girl
I suspect You are a Medical Dr. And interested in aviation, An AME also?
You then know that our profession are or at least was rife with heavy drinking. And if You do not know this , it is time to read up.
I find it fascinating that so many of you defend this chap, is it maybe that he is KLM.
I guarantee the postings would have been different if it was a Antonov crew in a freighter from say Ukraine or Mombasa Charter !
I personally have seen a KLM pilot go to work PISSED!
I asked him to call in sick, but he did not!!
Anyway , This guy can be a reminder to us all. And he gets the help he needs.
Cheers
Cpt B
You then know that our profession are or at least was rife with heavy drinking. And if You do not know this , it is time to read up.
I find it fascinating that so many of you defend this chap, is it maybe that he is KLM.
I guarantee the postings would have been different if it was a Antonov crew in a freighter from say Ukraine or Mombasa Charter !
I personally have seen a KLM pilot go to work PISSED!
I asked him to call in sick, but he did not!!
Anyway , This guy can be a reminder to us all. And he gets the help he needs.
Cheers
Cpt B
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Age: 48
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But until such time as he has been convicted in a court of law, and sentenced, I believe it is important that those with airman certificates stick up for their fellow aviator. And more important: abstain from joining the mob asking for the death penalty of flight (LOL etc).