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Air France on the ropes (again)?

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Air France on the ropes (again)?

Old 7th May 2018, 17:30
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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KLM is not so worried about AF if they would collaps. The biggest fear is when Delta would say goodbye because that's the biggest moneymaker for KLM and in the end for AF and ofcourse who go on strike. I believe that when AF would go down it opens better opportunities for KLM then it has today.
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Old 7th May 2018, 18:25
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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AF reckon they will be able to operate 95% of long haul and 75% of shorter routes during tomorrow's strike, with an overall figure of 80%.
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Old 7th May 2018, 20:48
  #23 (permalink)  
BeT
 
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AF does not deserve to exist for a multitude of reasons.

As someone who speaks directly to the pilots each and every day, I will also never, ever take an AF flight.

The poster above had it right. 1st world airline, 3rd world safety record.
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Old 7th May 2018, 23:24
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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As a passenger it's the arrogance or condescension of Air France cabin crew that drove me away. As a professional with way too many years in this business, the difference in safety culture between the two carriers (KLM and AF) is astonishing in this supposedly enlightened world of proactive safety management
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Old 8th May 2018, 05:38
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by stilton View Post
Surprised no one else has raised the
subject of the Air France safety record


I wouldnít fly on them, they own a unique distinction in Europe though, a supposedly first world major airline with a third world safety record.


AF447 was the last straw for me


I am currently finishing up transition training to the 777. One of my instructors works for CAE on the Citation fleet. He had a recently retired AF pilot come through for a type rating. The instructor was astounded by the lack of flying ability demonstrated by the pilot. He allowed the jet to slow to a stall without recognizing the imminent departure from controlled flight. He seemed oblivious.

One pilot does not make it the rule but this does draw a parallel to AF 447.
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Old 8th May 2018, 11:12
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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I am also an AF avoider for safety reasons. Even after the inexcusable loss of AF447, there was a succession of incidents (Alpha floor activation etc.) showing that the AF training and standards staff did not recognise the problem that was staring them in the face. I am told that AF pilots are briefed pre-LPC on exact nature of the emergency they will get, when it will occur and what the expected solution is - all as a result of union pressure. That goes some way to explaining the lack of ability and knowledge that others are finding with ex-AF people. And the national influence in EASA suggests it's not going to be tackled soon.
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Old 8th May 2018, 11:31
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Itís about time Air France disappeared without trace. Itís an appalling airline with arrogant cabin staff and a safety record to be ashamed of. I was very disappointed when AF became the lead in the merger with KLM - it devalued KLMs rťputation in my eyes and I dreaded that they would sink to the same low standards as AF. Thank goodness that didnít happen, but I would be very happy if this leads to the end of the JV. Now that Iím old and have to pay my own airfares, Iíd rather fly with KLM even if it costs me more (which is rarely the case). I feel safer flying with many of the airlines I fly with in developing countries than I do with Air Chance.
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Old 8th May 2018, 12:57
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by stilton View Post
AF447 was the last straw for me
And let's not forget AF 358 (2 Aug. 2005). I saw the smoke from that one ...
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Old 8th May 2018, 13:02
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sam Asama View Post
The end of Air France is the best thing that could happen to KLM. The oh-so-wise financial people who brought about that dysfunctional merger didn't understand the huge cultural differences between those two countries and those two entitities. I fly KLM very often internationally. In many cases I could choose Air France and save both time and money. I (and many other frequent flyers) will not do that. Enough said.
Prior to the Air France merger KLM was running out of cash with no end in sight. Without the Air France merger KLM would have shut down within 6 months.

This was covered in the Business publications at the time.
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Old 8th May 2018, 13:19
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Couldn't agree more schweizer2. The FR and other loco guys that join our airline are often the most vocal when it comes to enforcing working conditions and having a good moan. Shame they didn't practice what they preach earlier in their careers.
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Old 8th May 2018, 13:52
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MCDU2 View Post
Couldn't agree more schweizer2. The FR and other loco guys that join our airline are often the most vocal when it comes to enforcing working conditions and having a good moan. Shame they didn't practice what they preach earlier in their careers.
Shame professionals didn't do the same 10-20 years ago and failed to saveguard terms and conditions.Too easy to blame those starting their careers. Get a grip.
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Old 8th May 2018, 14:43
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
Shame professionals didn't do the same 10-20 years ago and failed to saveguard terms and conditions.Too easy to blame those starting their careers. Get a grip.
Hard to stop someone signing their own name on a contract with lessor terms.
Crews in company X can't stop new pilots joining company Y at worst terms, thus forcing company X to try reduce terms in its own airline.
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Old 8th May 2018, 15:12
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
Shame professionals didn't do the same 10-20 years ago and failed to saveguard terms and conditions.Too easy to blame those starting their careers. Get a grip.
What do you suggest? I get as p... off as the next guy when I see our union promoting Pilot recruiting fares, some of my current colleagues dumbing down the job and pretty much saying “come along and join us on the beach, ‘cos anyone do the day job” on their home videos. I must admit I get hacked off with former colleagues colluding with training organisations, but I’m not sure how we stop any of that.

As Schweizer has correctly pointed out in some countries it is extremely difficult, to say the least, to take action on behalf of employees or prospective employees of another company, and if we did try and restrict “employee supply” (cf. perhaps the UK’s BMA) then I am absolutely 100% certain that many of the newbies who will “do anything to get into aviation” would be screaming from the roof tops that older pilots were blocking them from getting into the industry..and TBH it is their right to work for pants T&Cs.
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Old 8th May 2018, 15:19
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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To all of those who are concerned about AF flying record: Yes up until 2012 it seems they were in a mess but currently they are doing ok or at least they stay out trouble - they use the aircraft after the landing so they are ok in my books.
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Old 8th May 2018, 15:48
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rwy in Sight View Post
To all of those who are concerned about AF flying record: Yes up until 2012 it seems they were in a mess but currently they are doing ok or at least they stay out trouble - they use the aircraft after the landing so they are ok in my books.
You can get very close to disaster without the aircraft ever being the problem and very usable after landing...
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Old 8th May 2018, 16:02
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by czarnajama View Post
And let's not forget AF 358 (2 Aug. 2005). I saw the smoke from that one ...
While perhaps the long landing in a driving rainstorm was ill-advised, the actions of the AF cabin crew to completely evacuate the cabin through a partial collection of exits with growing fires and within a minute or two without major injuries has been considered exemplary.
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Old 8th May 2018, 21:09
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SeenItAll View Post
While perhaps the long landing in a driving rainstorm was ill-advised, the actions of the AF cabin crew to completely evacuate the cabin through a partial collection of exits with growing fires and within a minute or two without major injuries has been considered exemplary.
The crew gambled with the A340 and the pax lives . The pax will be affected emotionally for life and a beautiful A/C was destroyed. " In aviation "Sometimes the best lndg is the one we choose not to make". Diverting to YOW would of been the wise choice.
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Old 8th May 2018, 21:57
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tsgas View Post
The crew gambled with the A340 and the pax lives . The pax will be affected emotionally for life and a beautiful A/C was destroyed. " In aviation "Sometimes the best lndg is the one we choose not to make". Diverting to YOW would of been the wise choice.
Did you read my post? I did not excuse the flight deck crew from perhaps making a severely wrong decision with respect to their landing. But others on this thread have been slagging on AF cabin crew, too. I was only noting that in this instance, the cabin crew is viewed to have performed extremely well. And as you know, cabin crew are "here primarily for your safety."
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Old 9th May 2018, 04:48
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SeenItAll View Post
Did you read my post? I did not excuse the flight deck crew from perhaps making a severely wrong decision with respect to their landing. But others on this thread have been slagging on AF cabin crew, too. I was only noting that in this instance, the cabin crew is viewed to have performed extremely well. And as you know, cabin crew are "here primarily for your safety."
Are you joking about reading your post ? There is no "perhaps" involved in deciding to be safe or reckless and destroying an A/C. Accept the blame for one's mistakes and don't repeat them in the future. Trying to be PC will just end up in costing more lives like with the crash and total loss of lives in AF 447.

Last edited by tsgas; 9th May 2018 at 23:06.
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Old 9th May 2018, 05:36
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Intrance View Post


You can get very close to disaster without the aircraft ever being the problem and very usable after landing...
like the big mess with the extremely unstable 380 approach and subsequent mess during the go-around at JFK, a few of the same type automation mis-management events on other fleets...passengers never hear to these things and are blissfully unaware..
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