EC notice on BREXIT issued, licenses/certificates invalid
It's much worse than that.... In essence, if you read the so called political declaration, after 29.03.2019 the UK falls off the cliff edge. UK licenses (beit Pilots, Engineers or Truck drivers etc etc) are no longer valid. And, furthermore Cabotage rules will ground all UK airlines flying to the EU. And the bloody UK government agreed to this... And me, a UK citizen living in France, well I'm abandoned too.
I'm going to transfer my UK truck license to a French equivilent and I suggest any pilots, engineers etc get an EASA license whilst they still can.
What a mess.....
I'm going to transfer my UK truck license to a French equivilent and I suggest any pilots, engineers etc get an EASA license whilst they still can.
What a mess.....
And, furthermore Cabotage rules will ground all UK airlines flying to the EU
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The text relating to EASA in the 26 page Political Declaration reads:
'The parties should treat one another as single entities....including certification....The parties will also explore the possibility of cooperation of United Kingdom Authorities with Union agencies such as the...European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA).
i.e. we're coming out of EASA but we'll try to align as closely as we can.
We have been lied to by the likes of Grayling and other ministers who all implied 'don't worry, of course we'll stay in EASA, it will be insane not to'
This is mind-blowingly stupid, the damage will be huge. From today onwards, all UK-based aviation businesses will hedge their bets by all pratical means to the detriment of UK plc
'The parties should treat one another as single entities....including certification....The parties will also explore the possibility of cooperation of United Kingdom Authorities with Union agencies such as the...European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA).
i.e. we're coming out of EASA but we'll try to align as closely as we can.
We have been lied to by the likes of Grayling and other ministers who all implied 'don't worry, of course we'll stay in EASA, it will be insane not to'
This is mind-blowingly stupid, the damage will be huge. From today onwards, all UK-based aviation businesses will hedge their bets by all pratical means to the detriment of UK plc
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I am staggered that this isn't front page news today - either with May's Deal or No Deal, we are leaving EASA. This is monumentally idiotic. We will 'seek' and 'explore' close alignment but we will not be part of EASA. Why isn't the aerospace and aviation industry screaming the house down this morning? The CAA's ability (or not) to ramp up swiftly to take on the full burden of effectively replacing EASA has been highlighted over the couple of years. Why the silence? Airbus? BAe? What the hell is going on?
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For those who haven't read it yet:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...by_Leaders.pdf
The way I understand it is that the UK would be leaving EASA but keep its national regulations aligned to allow future close cooperation. Regarding to licensing and certification, it will be interesting to see what is going to happen by 29th March 2019; if mutual recognition is ended, are we going to see a straight "guillotine" or perhaps some sort of grace period to allow effectively obtaining both EASA and UK national licences, certification etc?
https://assets.publishing.service.go...by_Leaders.pdf
24. While preserving regulatory autonomy, the Parties will put in place provisions to promote regulatory approaches that are transparent, efficient, promote avoidance of unnecessary barriers to trade in goods and are compatible to the extent possible. Disciplines on technical barriers to trade (TBT) and sanitary and phytosanitary measures (SPS) should build on and go beyond the respective WTO agreements. Specifically, the TBT disciplines should set out common principles in the fields of standardisation, technical regulations, conformity assessment, accreditation, market surveillance, metrology and labelling. The Parties should treat one another as single entities as regards SPS measures, including for certification purposes, and recognise regionalisation on the basis of appropriate epidemiological information provided by the exporting party. The Parties will also explore the possibility of cooperation of United Kingdom authorities with Union agencies such as the European Medicines Agency (EMA), the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA), and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA).
25. In this context, the United Kingdom will consider aligning with Union rules in relevant areas.
25. In this context, the United Kingdom will consider aligning with Union rules in relevant areas.
X. TRANSPORT
A. Aviation
60. The Parties should ensure passenger and cargo air connectivity through a Comprehensive Air Transport Agreement (CATA). The CATA should cover market access and investment, aviation safety and security, air traffic management, and provisions to ensure open and fair competition, including appropriate and relevant consumer protection requirements and social standards.
61. The Parties should make further arrangements to enable cooperation with a view to high standards of aviation safety and security, including through close cooperation between EASA and the United Kingdom's Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).
A. Aviation
60. The Parties should ensure passenger and cargo air connectivity through a Comprehensive Air Transport Agreement (CATA). The CATA should cover market access and investment, aviation safety and security, air traffic management, and provisions to ensure open and fair competition, including appropriate and relevant consumer protection requirements and social standards.
61. The Parties should make further arrangements to enable cooperation with a view to high standards of aviation safety and security, including through close cooperation between EASA and the United Kingdom's Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).
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Thing is, that is a political declaration. Subject to change and veto by any of the EU27 and their regional parliaments once it has been negotiated into a legally binding agreement. Which it isn’t as of yet. It simply says: that is what we all probably want. Not more, not less. If the EU27 see a way to get more out of it they will play that hand, after all they could not care less about the UK, it is about their own self interest of course.
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In Politico yesterday - if the deal is agreed, it seems The UK will leave EASA at the end of the transition period (end of 2020). If the deal is not agreed, the UK will leave EASA on 29 March 2019.
Brexit declaration makes clear UK will not seek to stay in EASA
-- By Joshua Posaner and Jacopo Barigazzi
11/22/18, 12:13 PM CET
The U.K. will maintain “close cooperation” with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), stopping short of membership, according to an expanded version of the joint political declaration on Brexit being discussed by EU ambassadors today.“Parties should make further arrangements to enable cooperation with a view to high standards of aviation safety and security, including through close cooperation between EASA and the United Kingdom’s Civil Aviation Authority,” the expanded declaration, obtained by POLITICO, said.The agreement sets out what should be negotiated over the coming months as part of a future relationship once Brexit happens and the transition phase ends. The expanded declaration calls for a new comprehensive air transport agreement to be worked up to cover everything from market access and investment to aviation safety and security, air traffic management, and provisions to ensure open and fair competition.That should also cover passenger rights and consumer protection, the deal said.In the joint declaration the two sides agree to maintain rail services like the Belfast-Dublin Enterprise Line and services through the Channel Tunnel. They also propose to set up an exchange of information between the European Maritime Safety Agency and the U.K.’s Maritime and Coastguard Agency.The text also calls for “comparable market access” for road transport operators.
To view online: https://www.politico.eu/pro/brexit-declaration-makes-clear-uk-will-not-seek-to-stay-in-easa/
Brexit declaration makes clear UK will not seek to stay in EASA
-- By Joshua Posaner and Jacopo Barigazzi
11/22/18, 12:13 PM CET
The U.K. will maintain “close cooperation” with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), stopping short of membership, according to an expanded version of the joint political declaration on Brexit being discussed by EU ambassadors today.“Parties should make further arrangements to enable cooperation with a view to high standards of aviation safety and security, including through close cooperation between EASA and the United Kingdom’s Civil Aviation Authority,” the expanded declaration, obtained by POLITICO, said.The agreement sets out what should be negotiated over the coming months as part of a future relationship once Brexit happens and the transition phase ends. The expanded declaration calls for a new comprehensive air transport agreement to be worked up to cover everything from market access and investment to aviation safety and security, air traffic management, and provisions to ensure open and fair competition.That should also cover passenger rights and consumer protection, the deal said.In the joint declaration the two sides agree to maintain rail services like the Belfast-Dublin Enterprise Line and services through the Channel Tunnel. They also propose to set up an exchange of information between the European Maritime Safety Agency and the U.K.’s Maritime and Coastguard Agency.The text also calls for “comparable market access” for road transport operators.
To view online: https://www.politico.eu/pro/brexit-declaration-makes-clear-uk-will-not-seek-to-stay-in-easa/
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That is appalling. For over 2 years I've had letters from the CAA and MPs saying completely the opposite - that we would aim to stay within EASA.
At such a late stage to rat on that position is criminal negligence
At such a late stage to rat on that position is criminal negligence
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You are right, industry has been consistently assured that in one form or other we will remain a member of EASA by the CAA hierarchy, government departments and representatives - as of yesterday that was clearly and concisely exposed as an outright lie. We now categorically leave EASA at end of a transition period, or we crash out this March. Total and utter betrayal.
Now there’s likely to be some kind of workaround there (we hope). Where there’s no workaround is the UK has virtually no bilaterals with other countries anymore for air travel, they’ve all been replaced by EU ones. Case and point EU-US openskies replacing Bermuda. These things take quite a while to negotiate. If there’s a hard Brexit in March, UK airlines can’t carry fare paying passengers to the US, EU and most other countries (and vice versa).
Now that hurts every airline, but most especially the UK airlines, putting them in the position of weakness at the outset of negotiations. Have fun with the Trump and Jinping administrations in that case.
Last edited by Una Due Tfc; 23rd Nov 2018 at 16:50.
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For those having to transfer their licence to another EASA country, the UK CAA strongly recommends to start the process by the end of the year - considering Christmas closure and very high volume of transactions, i dare to say 3 months might be tight.
http://info.caa.co.uk/eu-exit/commercial-pilots/
http://info.caa.co.uk/eu-exit/commercial-pilots/
To enable the CAA time to complete its part in the licence transfer process, the CAA advises that application forms from the NAA need to be submitted to the CAA by January 1 2019. We will endeavour to transfer any application received after this date, but the process may not be completed by 29 March 2019.
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I am staggered that this isn't front page news today - either with May's Deal or No Deal, we are leaving EASA. This is monumentally idiotic. We will 'seek' and 'explore' close alignment but we will not be part of EASA. Why isn't the aerospace and aviation industry screaming the house down this morning? The CAA's ability (or not) to ramp up swiftly to take on the full burden of effectively replacing EASA has been highlighted over the couple of years. Why the silence? Airbus? BAe? What the hell is going on?
Furthermore, I suspect the "deafening silence" is about to end, as TM takes every possible opportunity to scare the bejeezus out of everybody, to get her deal signed up. Please don't take my post as having the remotest bremain/brexit/deal/no deal bias. I long ago gave up giving any sort of a poop how this plays out. Like most now I am purely concerned with circling my own wagons and staying aware of likely outcomes, so in order to avoid the mucky stuff as it flies every which way.
Last edited by The Old Fat One; 28th Nov 2018 at 09:13.
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Interestingly, I have just read a beeb article re the Public Accounts Committee fears over border disruption in the no deal scenario. They claim the Department for Transport has been too secretive about its plans. And the DfT reply:
'The DfT says preparations need to be kept secret to avoid them damaging the commercial interests of the firms involved'
That is pretty much exactly what I am saying above re the "silence" from the aviation sector.
'The DfT says preparations need to be kept secret to avoid them damaging the commercial interests of the firms involved'
That is pretty much exactly what I am saying above re the "silence" from the aviation sector.
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I have to say I am finding this increasingly difficult to follow because of all the differing interpretations of information!
So here's my 'two penneth';
The EU has issued a draft document expressing their wish is for the UK to remain in EASA after Brexit even in the event of a no-deal.
The UK CAA issued a statement expressing their preference is for the UK to remain in EASA.
TM's proposed deal expresses a wish to 'align' with EASA. What does this actually mean? Who knows for sure? Frankly you can discuss it until the cows come home. All I know is - it is surely in the interest of all holders of a 'professional qualification' to remain in EASA regardless of a deal or no-deal?
Personally I think TM is seeking a deal that keeps the UK in EASA until 2020 only to allow extra thinking time to fully assess the impact of leaving EASA because nobody is sure (just like the N.I. border).
Meanwhile we all sweat!
So here's my 'two penneth';
The EU has issued a draft document expressing their wish is for the UK to remain in EASA after Brexit even in the event of a no-deal.
The UK CAA issued a statement expressing their preference is for the UK to remain in EASA.
TM's proposed deal expresses a wish to 'align' with EASA. What does this actually mean? Who knows for sure? Frankly you can discuss it until the cows come home. All I know is - it is surely in the interest of all holders of a 'professional qualification' to remain in EASA regardless of a deal or no-deal?
Personally I think TM is seeking a deal that keeps the UK in EASA until 2020 only to allow extra thinking time to fully assess the impact of leaving EASA because nobody is sure (just like the N.I. border).
Meanwhile we all sweat!
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"Alignment" and "equivalence" are legal terms. Alignment actually means that you have to align your laws to those of the leading body (the EU in this case) with no divergence possible. Which of course would mean that the UK would have to incorporate EU law without any input to it, quite difficult in any case, and especially in this one. Equivalence means, that the individual legal approach of one country is deemed sufficiently equivalent to another that it allows to accept that set of laws to be equivalent, while not being the same. That happens between the EU and the US for example in quite a few areas (over 150 agreements between the EU and the US do exist today). However, equivalence can be cancelled by either side unilaterally with just 30 days notice, unless otherwise safeguarded. It needs constant work and consultation and is extremely labour intensive on the regulatory side for both parties.
That said, i haven't seen any statement of the EU (council or commission) that expresses any wish to keep the UK in EASA, just a preparatory notice that the EU would be willing to assume equivalence for the first few moments after a disorderly brexit, provided that the UK reciprocates, however, that is just an opinion for now and does not constitute a legal framework. As a "no deal" or rather disorderly brexit would become apparent a few weeks before brexit date, that could be hardened in emergency negotiations on that topic, however, for that it will compete with other stuff like medical transportation etc. as for example the UK cannot produce enough insulin on its own to keep its diabetics alive, most is imported from the EU. Air travel is important, but not necessarily a life or death scenario like other stuff is.
That said, i haven't seen any statement of the EU (council or commission) that expresses any wish to keep the UK in EASA, just a preparatory notice that the EU would be willing to assume equivalence for the first few moments after a disorderly brexit, provided that the UK reciprocates, however, that is just an opinion for now and does not constitute a legal framework. As a "no deal" or rather disorderly brexit would become apparent a few weeks before brexit date, that could be hardened in emergency negotiations on that topic, however, for that it will compete with other stuff like medical transportation etc. as for example the UK cannot produce enough insulin on its own to keep its diabetics alive, most is imported from the EU. Air travel is important, but not necessarily a life or death scenario like other stuff is.
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...As a "no deal" or rather disorderly brexit would become apparent a few weeks before brexit date...
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http://www.parliament.uk/documents/c...29-11-2018.pdf.
see questions 98-105
Deal or no-deal it would appear the UK is not committing to being a member of EASA by the 29th March because TM wants further negotiations regardless. The EU has previously stated all professional qualifications will be invalid after this date. Then again the other day the EU leaders agreed the proposed deal in principal didn't they? So they will agree to discuss after 29th March or not?
Better get your applications ready to covert boys & girls because even if this proposal is voted in it still doesn't commit us to staying in EASA. I'm losing the will to live.
see questions 98-105
Deal or no-deal it would appear the UK is not committing to being a member of EASA by the 29th March because TM wants further negotiations regardless. The EU has previously stated all professional qualifications will be invalid after this date. Then again the other day the EU leaders agreed the proposed deal in principal didn't they? So they will agree to discuss after 29th March or not?
Better get your applications ready to covert boys & girls because even if this proposal is voted in it still doesn't commit us to staying in EASA. I'm losing the will to live.