EC notice on BREXIT issued, licenses/certificates invalid

[Icarus2001]

... but because EASA won't allow EU operators to fly into airspace that is controlled by an entity that doesn't hold a valid EASA authorisation.

Really is this true?

If so what mechanism do EASA use to prevent an EU operator sending a charter flight to the chart areas marked "there be dragons"?

[fdgolf]

Originally Posted by Fat Dog

If anyone has any experience of transferring a UK licence with TRE to an Austrian one can you give feedback please? Why has easyjet chosen Austria? I am being forced to move my licence and am trying to figure out the best option. Thanks.

I am in the same position, have a UK EASA issued TRE. I believe I'll be pitching for the Irish EASA License (their application form asks for the details of your TRE certificate if you hold one), but have no feedback whatsoever about transfering a license with TRE. I'll decide on applying early December, I am waiting until the vanishing hopes of UK CAA remaining in EASA environment are gone.

Cheers

[Brenoch]

Well, in EASA world, as I’m sure you would know, your TRE is entirely separate from your license. It’s two different pieces of paper, you can convert one or both or none...

[Fat Dog]

Originally Posted by Brenoch

Well, in EASA world, as I’m sure you would know, your TRE is entirely separate from your license. It’s two different pieces of paper, you can convert one or both or none...

Yes thank you I am aware of that. Maybe my post was poorly written, but any feedback with regards to transferring is still appreciated. For example, to transfer a TRE to the Danish authorities requires you to attend a 1 day seminar run by them which only happens 4 times a year, and as I understand it is over subscribed. So that is not a good option. The Austrians on the other hand, I don't know...

[airsound]

So now we've got the 585 pages of the "Draft Agreement on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the European Union", dated 14 November 2018.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...greement_0.pdf

I wondered what it said about aviation - but so far I can't find anything! There is, as far as I can see, no table of contents, and no index. I guess we just have to scan the 585 pages....

Any ideas?!

airsound

[Snyggapa]

well in that 585 page document the phrase:
EASA appears 0 times
CAA 0
aviation once, in the context of what is an acceptable identity card:

"Five years after the end of the transition period, the host State may decide no longer to accept national identity cards for the purposes of entry to or exit from its territory if such cards do not include a chip that complies with the applicable International Civil Aviation Organisation standards related to biometric identification."

Any other key terms...?

[robin]

TRANSPORT
● Comprehensive Air Transport Agreement, covering market access and investment, aviation safety and security, air traffic management and provisions to ensure open and fair competition.
● Comparable market access for freight and passenger road transport operators, underpinned by relevant existing international obligations to ensure open and fair competition, with consideration of complementary arrangements to address travel by private motorists.
● Acknowledgement of the intention of the United Kingdom and relevant Member States, in line with Union law, to make bilateral arrangements for cross-border rail services.
● Connectivity in the maritime transport sector, underpinned by the applicable international legal framework, with appropriate arrangements for cooperation on maritime safety and security.

It's in the 7 page Future relationship document issued at the same time - so no detail yet, and after this morning's resignations who knows if the agreement will stand

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...greement_0.pdf

[TURIN]

Articles 27and 28.Cover professional qualifications.

PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS ARTICLE 27 Recognised professional qualifications 1. The recognition, before the end of the transition period, of professional qualifications, as defined in point (b) of Article 3(1) of Directive 2005/36/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council1 , of Union citizens or United Kingdom nationals, and their family members, by their host State or their State of work shall maintain its effects in the respective State, including the right to pursue their profession under the same conditions as its nationals, where such recognition was made in accordance with any of the following provisions: (a) Title III of Directive 2005/36/EC in respect of the recognition of professional qualifications in the context of the exercise of the freedom of establishment, whether such recognition fell under the general system for the recognition of evidence of training, the system for the recognition of professional experience or the system for the recognition on the basis of coordination of minimum training conditions;

ARTICLE 28 Ongoing procedures on the recognition of professional qualifications Article 4, Article 4d in respect of recognitions of professional qualifications for establishment purposes, Article 4f and Title III of Directive 2005/36/EC, Article 10(1), (3) and (4) of Directive 98/5/EC, Article 14 of Directive 2006/43/EC and Directive 74/556/EEC shall apply in respect of the examination by a competent authority of the host State or State of work of any application for the recognition of professional qualifications introduced before the end of the transition period by Union citizens or United Kingdom nationals and in respect of the decision on any such application. Articles 4a, 4b and 4e of Directive 2005/36/EC shall also apply to the extent relevant for the completion of the procedures for the recognitions of professional qualifications for establishment purposes under Article 4d of that Directive.

[airsound]

Thanks for those points, TURIN, robin and Snyggapa. I think, though, robin, that the URL you give is for the whole (585pp) doc. The seven-pager (actually 8) is at
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...eclaration.pdf

Anyway, we don't seem to be much further ahead - although the Articles 27 and 28 that you adduce, TURIN, do perhaps suggest that aircrew qualifications may not immediately become invalid after 29 March, as previously suggested. Does anyone else think that's what Articles 27 and 28 mean?

But there seems to be no mention of whether UK-built parts (including Airbus wings) will lose their certification, and aircraft will be grounded all over the place.

And, in any case, the utter political chaos here in Britain might mean that the whole 585pp will be rendered null and void before long, I suppose....

airsound

[SamYeager]

Article 75 - Definitions contains

Regulation (EC) 1008/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council of
24 September 2008 on common rules for the operation of air services in the Community
(OJ L 293, 31.10.2008, p. 3).

Page 3 contains items such as 'competent licensing authority', 'Air Operator Certificate (AOC)' and 'scheduled air service' amongst others.

[airsound]

Thanks SamY. But, erm, forgive me if I'm being thick - but I'm not sure what Regulation (EC) 1008/2008 has to do with it! It's 10 years old (obviously) - and what I'm questioning is whether its definitions will still apply after 29 March 2019. Isn't that what this thread is all about? Or have I missed something.....

airsound

[The Ancient Geek]

Elsewhere in the document is a section which says that "Professional Qualifications" will continue to be recognised.
Sounds like that will cover aircrew licences etc.

[airsound]

Thanks Ancient G. I saw that somewhere too, but now I can't find it! But it does sound like aircrew licences may be safe - contrary to what the CAA was warning, in the event of a no-deal at least.

But that still doesn't cover the situation where UK-built aircraft parts may lose their certification, with the risk of mass aircraft groundings. Anyone found any reference that might cover that?

airsound

[Hawkeye63]

Originally Posted by The Ancient Geek

Elsewhere in the document is a section which says that "Professional Qualifications" will continue to be recognised.
Sounds like that will cover aircrew licences etc.

Remember, this is only true only in the event of the deal being accepted.
In the event of a 'no-deal' - as it stands, professional qualifications will cease to be recognised after 29th March 2019 as per statement on EASA website.

[marvo999]

Are we in or out of EASA with this deal, I am assuming in but with no influence?

[Hawkeye63]

Originally Posted by marvo999

Are we in or out of EASA with this deal, I am assuming in but with no influence?

In & your assumption is correct.
No-deal = we are 'out-out' & all professional qualifications issued by the UK CAA will be invalid as far as EASA are concerned.

[airsound]

Hawkeye63, up to a couple of days ago I would have agreed with you when you say:

No-deal = we are 'out-out' & all professional qualifications issued by the UK CAA will be invalid as far as EASA are concerned.

But, via BT News (not the phone co, but Business Travel), and Airlines UK, I've come across a "Communication" from the European Commission dated 13 November 2018 and referred to as a "Contingency Action Plan".
https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/communication-preparing-withdrawal-brexit-preparedness-13-11-2018.pdf.

It's 14 pdf pages long, and in its introduction it says:

irrespective of the scenario envisaged, the United Kingdom's choice will cause significant disruption.

But it then goes on to deal with plans for financial services et al, including aviation. First it says:

the Commission has invited the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) to start processing certain applications from UK entities in preparation for the time when the United Kingdom will not be a Member State.

So far so good. But later there's much more:

Air transport

In the area of air transport, the withdrawal of the United Kingdom without any arrangement in place at the withdrawal date, and without operators concluding the necessary and possible alternative arrangements, would lead to abrupt interruptions of air traffic between the United Kingdom and the European Union, due to the absence of traffic rights and/or the invalidity of the operating licence or of aviation safety certificates.

1. Regarding traffic rights, the Commission will propose measures to ensure that air carriers from the United Kingdom are allowed to fly over the territory of the European Union, make technical stops (e.g. refuelling without embarkation/disembarkation of passengers), as well as land in the European Union and fly back to the United Kingdom. Those measures would be subject to the condition that the United Kingdom applies equivalent measures to air carriers from the European Union.
2. Regarding aviation safety, for certain aeronautical products (ʻtype certificatesʼ) and companies (ʻorganisation approvalsʼ), the European Aviation Safety Authority (EASA) will only be able to issue certificates once the United Kingdom has become a third country. The Commission will propose measures ensuring continued validity of such certificates for a limited period of time. These measures will be subject to the condition that the United Kingdom applies similar measures. Likewise, the Commission will propose measures ensuring that parts and appliances placed on the Union market before the withdrawal date based on a certificate issued by a legal and natural person certified by the UK Civil Aviation Authority may still be used under certain circumstances.
3. The Commission will take action to ensure that passengers and their cabin baggage flying from the United Kingdom and transiting via EU27 airports continue to be exempted from a second security screening, by applying the so-called ʻOne Stop Securityʼ system.19 Regarding the requirement in EU law that air carriers must be majority-owned and controlled by EU legal or natural persons, the Commission underlines that it is essential for companies that wish to be recognised as EU air carriers to take all the necessary measures to ensure that they meet this requirement on 30 March 2019.

Unless I've missed something (quite possible), that seems to negate any ideas that flights are going to be grounded on 30 March.

airsound

[Denti]

Originally Posted by airsound

Unless I've missed something (quite possible), that seems to negate any ideas that flights are going to be grounded on 30 March.

Well, i do agree to a point. There is certainly some focus on aviation and keeping things flying for a bit longer, however, that is, at this point in time, basically an opinion of the Commission, but not yet law, and therefore would need some legal action to become that. As it would basically grant certain rights to a third country without any international negotiated agreement.

I think i said before, in the event that no conclusion on the withdrawal agreement negotiations can be reached, there will be several months before the actual date of withdrawal and that allows some time for a last second fudge on certain issues, this seems to be the first indication that the commission is of the same opinion. Which is not a bad sign, but every responsible business of course has to take into account that it might not materialise, and as far as i know, both Airbus and Easyjet, two of the most affected businesses in that sector, continue with their preparations in that kind of fashion.

[Hawkeye63]

airsound thanks for the info - I hadn't seen this. It appears to be a bit of a game changer to say the least!
This document certainly implies that the UK would automatically become a 'third country' member of EASA in the event of a no-deal thereby removing all ambiguity.
I need to find a quiet room to read it thoroughly.

[robin]

I've been looking at the political declaration out today

This summary from the Guardian that shows not a lot has been happening

. Aviation
Long grass rating: ••••

The UK and EU have agreed to negotiate a “comprehensive air transport agreement” covering safety, security, air-traffic control, consumer protection, as well as market rules for aviation companies. But the short aspirational text leaves majority British-controlled airlines in the dark about how Brexit will affect their business, especially valuable transatlantic routes. At the moment, EU aviation agreements, such as the transatlantic Open Skies deal, are only open to European airlines where 51% of shareholders are in the EU. The EU has snubbed the British government’s request to join the European Aviation Safety Agency, merely noting that the two sides will “explore the possibility of cooperation”.