EC notice on BREXIT issued, licenses/certificates invalid
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EASA 7 March 2018...ICAO ATTACHMENT TO AUTOMATICALLY VALIDATE LICENCES (issue 1) issued in accordance with Annex VII to Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011...
1. The licence is automatically validated by ALL the ICAO States listed in point (2) under an agreement registered with ICAO. The ICAO Registration Number is 5950.
2. The ICAO Contracting States that automatically validate this licence are: 28 European States including UK, France and Germany.
This may have been posted here already but I couldn’t find it...EASA will have to answer to ICAO.
1. The licence is automatically validated by ALL the ICAO States listed in point (2) under an agreement registered with ICAO. The ICAO Registration Number is 5950.
2. The ICAO Contracting States that automatically validate this licence are: 28 European States including UK, France and Germany.
This may have been posted here already but I couldn’t find it...EASA will have to answer to ICAO.
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I think you will find that as an associate member of EASA the ECJ red line would/could be crossed. Any dispute within EASA of those countries, (full or associate members), signed up to it are subject to the ECJ.
I cannot see the hard line Brexiteers being happy as an associate member with no influence and subject to the ECJ.
Over the 10 years it took to agree Open Skies the UK had a major influence. It still does within EASA.
If agreement cannot be reached then UK airlines are in danger of being excluded from EASA and the Open Skies Agreement. That is why easyJet and Thomas Cook are moving their HQ's to Europe. Furthermore the major EU airlines are badgering their governments to exclude UK airlines from open skies because of the benefits it brings them.
Below is a list of possibilities if the UK is excluded from EASA and the Open Skies Agreement.
The UK would have to negotiate sovereignty over its airspace via ICAO, IATA and the 27 EU countries
Probable very limited “freedoms” of the air within the EU
Traffic rights given by bilateral agreements
EU countries traditionally protect national carrier and limit/prohibit competition. UK would probably do the same.
Use only of designated airports
Often single airline designation between airports leading to increased fares due lack of competition
Limited frequencies / capacity
Double approval for fares leading to increased fares
Pooling agreements between airlines leading to increased fares
Most airlines state-owned with independent airlines facing unfair competition as governments protect their own
I cannot see the hard line Brexiteers being happy as an associate member with no influence and subject to the ECJ.
Over the 10 years it took to agree Open Skies the UK had a major influence. It still does within EASA.
If agreement cannot be reached then UK airlines are in danger of being excluded from EASA and the Open Skies Agreement. That is why easyJet and Thomas Cook are moving their HQ's to Europe. Furthermore the major EU airlines are badgering their governments to exclude UK airlines from open skies because of the benefits it brings them.
Below is a list of possibilities if the UK is excluded from EASA and the Open Skies Agreement.
The UK would have to negotiate sovereignty over its airspace via ICAO, IATA and the 27 EU countries
Probable very limited “freedoms” of the air within the EU
Traffic rights given by bilateral agreements
EU countries traditionally protect national carrier and limit/prohibit competition. UK would probably do the same.
Use only of designated airports
Often single airline designation between airports leading to increased fares due lack of competition
Limited frequencies / capacity
Double approval for fares leading to increased fares
Pooling agreements between airlines leading to increased fares
Most airlines state-owned with independent airlines facing unfair competition as governments protect their own
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Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland, are all EASA associated countries (and have been for years) and operate without any great issues. I suggest that people are looking for problems where they dont exist. Remaining a Member of EASA meets the UK Government requirements and doesnt cross the red-line of ECJ jurisdiction.
UK has been constantly rejecting the offer from Europe to remain in the EEA and customs union.
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zerograv
Could be you should check out the IAA Part-FCL licence transfer programme. Looks like the way to go for a lot of UK CAA licence holders.
Could be you should check out the IAA Part-FCL licence transfer programme. Looks like the way to go for a lot of UK CAA licence holders.
But what if you wanted to return to the UK and fly for a UK operator? Where is the guarantee that an Irish EASA licence will be valid in the UK, post-Brexit?
And the CAA appear to have stopped issuing UK CAA licences, to go alongside the EASA licence. So the only thing I have now is a UK EASA licence that may not be valid in March.
Will the CAA issue pledge to UK licences to all EASA licence holders, so that we can return to the UK at any time and take up employment there?
ST
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As part of its “non-negotiated” withdrawal plans, the CAA could need to hire 30 to 50 new members of staff, a source told Reuters, adding no such jobs were advertised currently.
The CAA also said it would need to cover some regulatory processes itself if there is no deal.
The CAA also said it would need to cover some regulatory processes itself if there is no deal.
In which case, in two years time the UK CAA will have nothing to administer, and will close down.
Do the heads of the CAA understand the implications?
ST
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silvertate
Yep, looks like this is the likely scenario. I've been telling my non-retired friends for some time that they will need to obtain EASA licences by end of March 2019. Needless to say, the uniform response is along the lines of "it won't happen, THEY won't allow it". Good luck guys!
Yep, looks like this is the likely scenario. I've been telling my non-retired friends for some time that they will need to obtain EASA licences by end of March 2019. Needless to say, the uniform response is along the lines of "it won't happen, THEY won't allow it". Good luck guys!
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I don't really see the point of denying that this mess can cause some problems.
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Where is the "Sit back and eat popcorn" emoji? I'm loving this. As an absolute detester of EASA and it's wayward, short sighted and non sensical approach to a lot of issues that affect a number of pilots in the EU/Europe/No mans land....I hope the UK take a more pragmatic, realistic approach to a lot of issues. However, I think that the UK CAA, led by the Sheep at the top and the bureaucrats below, will just adopt all the EASA regulation, whether appropriate, inappropriate, relevant or otherwise, to try and "fit in" and upset the apple cart as little as possible. Its a shame, because actually, they could do an awful lot of good in a lot of areas with a "clean sheet".
For all you "remoaners" as well as you "Brexiteers".....fear not....there won't be a monumental collapse, once all the dick swinging is out of the way.
Dont mention the war. Vive La Revolution. Etc
For all you "remoaners" as well as you "Brexiteers".....fear not....there won't be a monumental collapse, once all the dick swinging is out of the way.
Dont mention the war. Vive La Revolution. Etc
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Hi Triple Nickel 8 Ball
Enjoyed your post, gave me a good chuckle. Just so we know, can you explain to us how "there won't be a monumental collapse", (presumably) after a hard brexit and UK becomes a Third Country and hence a Third Country Operator (TCO), suddenly not being an EASA member and unable to be party to the Open Skies Agreement at 23.00 hrs UTC on 29 March 2019? Just asking like.
Enjoyed your post, gave me a good chuckle. Just so we know, can you explain to us how "there won't be a monumental collapse", (presumably) after a hard brexit and UK becomes a Third Country and hence a Third Country Operator (TCO), suddenly not being an EASA member and unable to be party to the Open Skies Agreement at 23.00 hrs UTC on 29 March 2019? Just asking like.
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Because "It'll be alright on the night" my good chap (or "chapess"?). Remember that the likes of GAMA, are essentially, still dictating terms/legislation to the UK CAA, as well as influencing EASA. I'm not convinced that all the UK trained and UK CAA issued EASA licence holders will be left crying into their Corn Flakes, wherever in EASA land they may be flying. Neither am I convinced that Lord Smartypants (CP at BA) and his opposite number at EZ et al Brit airlines, will be expected to be a "Third Country" licence holder. PAH!! (spits on the floor), can you imagine any of these people actually being likened to a (insert, overly dramatic, "Psycho" film musical overtone here) FAA/American Pilot???!!!!! Heaven forbid. They'd have to prove their mettle all over again by sitting a load of nonsensical, boring, laborious, time consuming exams, to prove that their 5000 hours in multi crew jets were actually worth anything (??).
No, no, ...... tranquilo/tranquila......they won't want to be made to sit all the 14 exams (can you imagine an 80's BA 747 Jockey having to do that!!!). Sitting the exams and doing flight skills tests again, so as to be issued an EASA licence off the back of their ICAO issued one, won't happen. HOWEVER......I will absolutely laugh my pants off and shout from the top of some place, very high, if they are made to. Maybe I will see a lot of you at Bristol Groundschool and, they had better get some bigger premises. Theres a couple of big hangers for rent in Cardiff I think? Maybe UK CAA issued EASA pilots will be given a sensible validation option? Maybe EASA, in it's infinite stupidity, sorry, I mean wisdom, will actually, just pull the cat out of the bag and let everyone off? With certainty though, I think I can say that everyone will be "safe" and it will be a storm in a teacup.
Thats said....if they DO come up with a sensible validation process, for ICAO ATP holders and the likes, at least we can bring a load of Americans to GB to help with the pilot shortage. WINNER! WINNER! Chicken dinner!
No, no, ...... tranquilo/tranquila......they won't want to be made to sit all the 14 exams (can you imagine an 80's BA 747 Jockey having to do that!!!). Sitting the exams and doing flight skills tests again, so as to be issued an EASA licence off the back of their ICAO issued one, won't happen. HOWEVER......I will absolutely laugh my pants off and shout from the top of some place, very high, if they are made to. Maybe I will see a lot of you at Bristol Groundschool and, they had better get some bigger premises. Theres a couple of big hangers for rent in Cardiff I think? Maybe UK CAA issued EASA pilots will be given a sensible validation option? Maybe EASA, in it's infinite stupidity, sorry, I mean wisdom, will actually, just pull the cat out of the bag and let everyone off? With certainty though, I think I can say that everyone will be "safe" and it will be a storm in a teacup.
Thats said....if they DO come up with a sensible validation process, for ICAO ATP holders and the likes, at least we can bring a load of Americans to GB to help with the pilot shortage. WINNER! WINNER! Chicken dinner!
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silvertate
Yep, looks like this is the likely scenario. I've been telling my non-retired friends for some time that they will need to obtain EASA licences by end of March 2019. Needless to say, the uniform response is along the lines of "it won't happen, THEY won't allow it". Good luck guys!
Yep, looks like this is the likely scenario. I've been telling my non-retired friends for some time that they will need to obtain EASA licences by end of March 2019. Needless to say, the uniform response is along the lines of "it won't happen, THEY won't allow it". Good luck guys!
If the UK CAA don't get their act together, every airline in the UK may well migrate to Ireland, and all the aircraft, engineers and pilots will follow.
And then the UK CAA may well close their doors and disband.
But I get the impression that the UK CAA management are Europhiles, and would love to see the failure of the UK CAA, just to teach the Brexiteers a lesson.
ST
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NOOOOOOO!! You misunderstand me.....I really don't care a toss is what I'm saying. In fact, this piece of legislation has been doing me up the wrong one for years in one way or another. The only concern I have is what licence I will get issued when I finish my heli licence in a month or so....maybe the shortest timespan for a licence held ever??? LMFAO. Maybe I need to look harder in my breakfast cereal packets to see what licence I can find in there and who issued it?
No....I've been chasing my tail with EASA for YEARS.....they are a clueless bunch of "feckwits", inventing legislation because they are told to by the big players in aviation (to screw up the small guy) or doing it, to justify the huge numbers of staff and bureaucrats, justifying their posts. The UK CAA are sheep....without control of their own regulation who, now there is a possibility of not being guided by a leash, have started to panic and fall even further apart. They have little or no reason for a lot of useless legislation and the Third Country Maintenance, Licensing and spares issue, is now becoming more of an issue for UK CAA issued EASA licence holders and suppliers, whereas the reality of that particular bit of nonsense has been a pain in the ass of a lot of Third Country engineers and pilots, for YEARS....and they haven't given a crap. I just hope they come up with a sensible validation process for all, that covers ALL third country people....but I am sure it won't. Selective legislation at its finest again.
I wonder, if we had a poll and, if everyone was HONEST....how many people on here voted to Leave the EU and who are now bitching about the consequences????????
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Hi Triple Nickel 8 Ball
Enjoyed your post, gave me a good chuckle. Just so we know, can you explain to us how "there won't be a monumental collapse", (presumably) after a hard brexit and UK becomes a Third Country and hence a Third Country Operator (TCO), suddenly not being an EASA member and unable to be party to the Open Skies Agreement at 23.00 hrs UTC on 29 March 2019? Just asking like.
Enjoyed your post, gave me a good chuckle. Just so we know, can you explain to us how "there won't be a monumental collapse", (presumably) after a hard brexit and UK becomes a Third Country and hence a Third Country Operator (TCO), suddenly not being an EASA member and unable to be party to the Open Skies Agreement at 23.00 hrs UTC on 29 March 2019? Just asking like.
As unlimited US access to LHR was the Jewel in the crown for the US Airlines in the Open Skies agreement I wouldn't bet against Trump pulling out of that agreement once the US lose that access through the UK no longer being part of the deal.
Then everyone is back to square one.
/But what do you do if you want to come back to the UK? Keep swapping licences? Or will the UK CAA allow you to keep two licences.
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But what do you do if you want to come back to the UK? Keep swapping licences? Or will the UK CAA allow you to keep two licences.
If the UK CAA don't get their act together, every airline in the UK may well migrate to Ireland, and all the aircraft, engineers and pilots will follow.
And then the UK CAA may well close their doors and disband.
But I get the impression that the UK CAA management are Europhiles, and would love to see the failure of the UK CAA, just to teach the Brexiteers a lesson.
ST
If the UK CAA don't get their act together, every airline in the UK may well migrate to Ireland, and all the aircraft, engineers and pilots will follow.
And then the UK CAA may well close their doors and disband.
But I get the impression that the UK CAA management are Europhiles, and would love to see the failure of the UK CAA, just to teach the Brexiteers a lesson.
ST
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TN8 ball has a point. It's ironic that UK issued EASA pilot licences may no longer be valid next March. More recently it was FAA licenced pilots banned in Europe by EASA.
As the UK is becoming a third country its looking like FAA licences will be valid again, maybe they can provide some emergency crew cover when UK EASA licenced pilots are grounded.
As the UK is becoming a third country its looking like FAA licences will be valid again, maybe they can provide some emergency crew cover when UK EASA licenced pilots are grounded.