EC notice on BREXIT issued, licenses/certificates invalid
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This notification is simply a statement of fact. The UK government plans a bill to retain EU law for the transition period. The ECJ retains authority over certain matters in the transition period and any transition from EU oversight takes place gradually after that.
BUT ... none of this has been agreed yet. Both the EU and the UK would lose out significantly unless these matters are settled. The assumption is they will be settled. After all, disruption on this scale is unthinkable to both parties.
BUT ... they aren't settled yet (or even remotely close to being settled) and we really need to get on with this to avoid chaos.
In my personal opinion it will be impossible to do anything other than accept EASA for now. Our pre-EASA bi-lateral agreements no longer apply. Bi-lateral negotiations, open skies agreements etc. will take a long time - there is nothing we can do about other countries parliamentary timescales - and that assumes the political will is there.
I think EASA in some shape or form with ECJ involvement in some shape or form is pretty much inevitable.
BUT ... none of this has been agreed yet. Both the EU and the UK would lose out significantly unless these matters are settled. The assumption is they will be settled. After all, disruption on this scale is unthinkable to both parties.
BUT ... they aren't settled yet (or even remotely close to being settled) and we really need to get on with this to avoid chaos.
In my personal opinion it will be impossible to do anything other than accept EASA for now. Our pre-EASA bi-lateral agreements no longer apply. Bi-lateral negotiations, open skies agreements etc. will take a long time - there is nothing we can do about other countries parliamentary timescales - and that assumes the political will is there.
I think EASA in some shape or form with ECJ involvement in some shape or form is pretty much inevitable.
Skyjob,
I do take exception to your overall assessment of older people (and on this forum many older ex-pilots!) resenting the EU ! It may be the case for some but certainly not for all! Some of us geriatrics are actually quite pro-EU (obviously some things are not right but that applies to many things!)
Please do not generalise!! This is in part why there are so many disagreements.
Let us try and get some sense out of it, we all need each other.
Bill
I do take exception to your overall assessment of older people (and on this forum many older ex-pilots!) resenting the EU ! It may be the case for some but certainly not for all! Some of us geriatrics are actually quite pro-EU (obviously some things are not right but that applies to many things!)
Please do not generalise!! This is in part why there are so many disagreements.
Let us try and get some sense out of it, we all need each other.
Bill
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Like my mother. She lived through the war. Voting remain was a complete no-brainer for her.
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Like many, I am one of those in a situation where my future at current airline at current location and therefore my livelihood and family life is at stake. And I did not get a vote, having been UK based for 2 decades paying HMRC to fund the economy and support it! But it will be my life, my family's life and livelihood at stake, due no fault nor choice of our own. Thanks you to the Leave Voters, I am sure I will be easily replaced by a UK version instead.
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The whole precess of the UK leaving the EU could be made a lot smoother but the resentment, anger and frustration from the EU side, is still very much palpable. Unless this subsidies, then progress shall be slow and painstaking. Hearing the very recent quotes of Tusk saying he is 'furious' about Brexit and Verhofstadt using such an adjective on BBC as 'stupid' to describe the process, shows the strong level of bitterness that still exists. This will do little to appease the politicians who are staunch supporters of Brexit and especially with the overflow of raw emotion and feeling from the EU side.
I get the feeling that those with any degree of influence and control within the EU, seem to be determined on going out of their way to make the Brexit process as complicated and as painful for the UK, as it possibly can be. The ramifications for the aviation industry could be significant but it doesn't have to be this way. It could be far more harmonious!!!
I get the feeling that those with any degree of influence and control within the EU, seem to be determined on going out of their way to make the Brexit process as complicated and as painful for the UK, as it possibly can be. The ramifications for the aviation industry could be significant but it doesn't have to be this way. It could be far more harmonious!!!
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Meanwhile, back in the real world, all they're doing is waiting for the UK to decide what it wants. (Other than the free rainbow coloured flying unicorns which is all we've asked for so far of course.)
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The EU will continue to exist regardless of how amicable future negations turn out to be (or not!) but one could be forgiven that the roles have been reversed given on which side the raw feeling seems to be strongest.
I now sum up the propositions which are before you. Our constant aim must be to build and fortify the United Nations Organisation. Under and within that world concept we must recreate the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe.
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This is not a crisis, it’s just an administrative hiccup. It’s will be solved eventually and a pragmatic solution will be found. It is just a pity that some people find it difficult to accept that a decision taken by the UK electorate will actually be followed up by action. In this case it is to leave the EU. It is just a shame that the EU did not accept that this was a possibility. The writing on the wall was clear when the ink on the signature to the Maastricht treat was still wet. Despite our huge list of faults and failings, the British have a deep desire for personal freedoms and the right to self determination. We are unable to accept being ruled by anybody we can not remove from office. We are very pro-European and have proved this on many an occasion. On 31 December 2006 we made our last payment of £45.5 million clear our WW2 debt to the US and in March 2015 we eventually cleared our WW1 debt of £1.9 billion. And some of my relatives are still in northern France and in the Atlantic.
How we leave the EU is up to negotiation and the intent by both sides. Unfortunately there are many in Europe with short term, vindictive memories who would like to see us punished for leaving but there are also a great number of sensible peope who would like to see a fair and reasonable outcome. A good reason would be that we are the second largest economy in Europe. And damaging our economy means we will all suffer. So with my most optimistic hat on I envisage a reasonable outcome - eventually. But I’m under no illusion that this will happen in a timely fashion. The EASA are not epitome of bureaucratic efficiency. After all, why should they be? They are totally unaccountable and answerable to nobody. Which is possibly one of the reasons...
PM
How we leave the EU is up to negotiation and the intent by both sides. Unfortunately there are many in Europe with short term, vindictive memories who would like to see us punished for leaving but there are also a great number of sensible peope who would like to see a fair and reasonable outcome. A good reason would be that we are the second largest economy in Europe. And damaging our economy means we will all suffer. So with my most optimistic hat on I envisage a reasonable outcome - eventually. But I’m under no illusion that this will happen in a timely fashion. The EASA are not epitome of bureaucratic efficiency. After all, why should they be? They are totally unaccountable and answerable to nobody. Which is possibly one of the reasons...
PM
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If one party renounces it (a years notice necessary) they remove overflight/transit rights for themselves as well as for other signatories over their territory. Canada renounced their participation in the ‘80s requiring them to propose revisions to all their existing Air Services agreements to include 1st/2nd freedom rights. That took quite a few years as I recall.
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UKs cards!
In a meeting last year in EU , Junker was making a plan to react to UK.
He looks around the table and asks every EU country to make a list of what they and EU needed from UK in the future. So as to have a list of things EU could not do without !
The room fell silent as everyone worked hard!
After a few seconds someone concluded :
Nothing!
Gone flying!
Cpt B
He looks around the table and asks every EU country to make a list of what they and EU needed from UK in the future. So as to have a list of things EU could not do without !
The room fell silent as everyone worked hard!
After a few seconds someone concluded :
Nothing!
Gone flying!
Cpt B
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OMG
This is disastrous!
We might have to stop flying in Europe, like the Americans/ Middle East countries and Australians do.....
Hang on a minute.............
This is disastrous!
We might have to stop flying in Europe, like the Americans/ Middle East countries and Australians do.....
Hang on a minute.............
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To get back to the real subject which of course is Aerospace related. Whilst the fishing industry will benefit from Brexit, the British Airline industry and community will not. The Aerospace industry is significantly larger than the fishing industry. The phenominal growth of the Airline industry has resulted from the Open skies deal between EU and EEA nations. It is subject to the jurisdiction of the ECJ. The Open Skies deal came about largely because of significant lobbying by the the UK CAA and government.
In electing to Brexit we are making a national choice to leave open skies, EASA and the Jurisdiction of the ECJ. A consortium of British Airports said last year that this was likely to ground 43% of flights. This would lead to difficulties in connecting passengers to and from EU airports travelling long haul out of the UK. It would also create massive logistical problems having so many aircraft grounded. Obviously the final deal with the EU will dictate the survival of the British Aerospace industry. Wishful thinking is however foolish in my view. The decision will be made systemically not rationally.
In electing to Brexit we are making a national choice to leave open skies, EASA and the Jurisdiction of the ECJ. A consortium of British Airports said last year that this was likely to ground 43% of flights. This would lead to difficulties in connecting passengers to and from EU airports travelling long haul out of the UK. It would also create massive logistical problems having so many aircraft grounded. Obviously the final deal with the EU will dictate the survival of the British Aerospace industry. Wishful thinking is however foolish in my view. The decision will be made systemically not rationally.
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Either March 30th 2019 or January 1st 2021, as things currently stand we'll lose everything and be more restricted than the countries you listed. The only exception maybe pre-existing bilateral agreements.
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Will regulation become cheaper or more expensive for the UK? I don't "know" the answer, but I certainly have a view. It is why the ICAO supports regional rather than state regulation.
I have absolutely no doubt that the UKCAA will be a gold standard regulator, but it won't be cheap and therefore "could" put UK carriers at a disadvantage against the shared services of EASA.
I have absolutely no doubt that the UKCAA will be a gold standard regulator, but it won't be cheap and therefore "could" put UK carriers at a disadvantage against the shared services of EASA.
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To get back to the real subject which of course is Aerospace related. Whilst the fishing industry will benefit from Brexit, the British Airline industry and community will not. The Aerospace industry is significantly larger than the fishing industry. The phenominal growth of the Airline industry has resulted from the Open skies deal between EU and EEA nations. It is subject to the jurisdiction of the ECJ. The Open Skies deal came about largely because of significant lobbying by the the UK CAA and government.
In electing to Brexit we are making a national choice to leave open skies, EASA and the Jurisdiction of the ECJ. A consortium of British Airports said last year that this was likely to ground 43% of flights. This would lead to difficulties in connecting passengers to and from EU airports travelling long haul out of the UK. It would also create massive logistical problems having so many aircraft grounded. Obviously the final deal with the EU will dictate the survival of the British Aerospace industry. Wishful thinking is however foolish in my view. The decision will be made systemically not rationally.
In electing to Brexit we are making a national choice to leave open skies, EASA and the Jurisdiction of the ECJ. A consortium of British Airports said last year that this was likely to ground 43% of flights. This would lead to difficulties in connecting passengers to and from EU airports travelling long haul out of the UK. It would also create massive logistical problems having so many aircraft grounded. Obviously the final deal with the EU will dictate the survival of the British Aerospace industry. Wishful thinking is however foolish in my view. The decision will be made systemically not rationally.
Not arguing....But just wondering what the evidence is for that,
As far as I'm aware, the only UK airline which has successfully benefited is Easy, and even then to nothing like the extent of O'Leary's Flying Circus.
But....How about my $10 against your $10 that not even 4.3%, forget 43%, of UK <> EU flights will suddenly be grounded come BREXIT day.
The rest of your post, yes I agree....
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Not arguing....But just wondering what the evidence is for that,
As far as I'm aware, the only UK airline which has successfully benefited is Easy, and even then to nothing like the extent of O'Leary's Flying Circus.
But....How about my $10 against your $10 that not even 4.3%, forget 43%, of UK <> EU flights will suddenly be grounded come BREXIT day.
The rest of your post, yes I agree....
As far as I'm aware, the only UK airline which has successfully benefited is Easy, and even then to nothing like the extent of O'Leary's Flying Circus.
But....How about my $10 against your $10 that not even 4.3%, forget 43%, of UK <> EU flights will suddenly be grounded come BREXIT day.
The rest of your post, yes I agree....
Regarding your other point, Britain has around 1000 registered commercial Airliners. The majority of those are benefiting from EU open skies. I'm baffled by your first statement, it's wrong.