EC notice on BREXIT issued, licenses/certificates invalid
See the link on here https://www.easa.europa.eu/brexit-negotiations , referring to a "NOTICE TO STAKEHOLDERS - WITHDRAWAL OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND EU AVIATION SAFETY RULES" on the European Commission website, which says:
Certificates issued before the withdrawal date by the competent authorities of the United Kingdom on the basis of the provisions of the Basic Regulation and its implementing rules will no longer be valid as of the withdrawal date in the EU. This concerns in particular:
Certificates of airworthiness, restricted certificates of airworthiness, permits to fly, approvals of organisations responsible for the maintenance of products, parts and appliances, approvals for organisations responsible for the manufacture of products, parts and appliances, approvals for maintenance training organisations, and certificates for personnel responsible for the release of a product, part or appliance after maintenance, issued pursuant to Article 5 of the Basic Regulation;
Pilot licences, pilot medical certificates, certificates for pilot training organisations, certificates for aero-medical centres, certificates for flight simulation training devices, certificates for persons responsible for providing flight training, flight simulation training or assessing pilots' skill, and certificates for aero medical examiners, issued pursuant to Article 7 of the Basic Regulation;
Certificates for air operators and attestations for the cabin crew, issued pursuant to Article 8 of the Basic Regulation;
Certificates for aerodromes, certificates for ATM/ANS providers, licences and medical certificates for air traffic controllers, certificates for air traffic controller training organisations, certificates for aero medical centres and aero medical examiners responsible for air traffic controllers, certificates for persons
etc
Certificates issued before the withdrawal date by the competent authorities of the United Kingdom on the basis of the provisions of the Basic Regulation and its implementing rules will no longer be valid as of the withdrawal date in the EU. This concerns in particular:
Certificates of airworthiness, restricted certificates of airworthiness, permits to fly, approvals of organisations responsible for the maintenance of products, parts and appliances, approvals for organisations responsible for the manufacture of products, parts and appliances, approvals for maintenance training organisations, and certificates for personnel responsible for the release of a product, part or appliance after maintenance, issued pursuant to Article 5 of the Basic Regulation;
Pilot licences, pilot medical certificates, certificates for pilot training organisations, certificates for aero-medical centres, certificates for flight simulation training devices, certificates for persons responsible for providing flight training, flight simulation training or assessing pilots' skill, and certificates for aero medical examiners, issued pursuant to Article 7 of the Basic Regulation;
Certificates for air operators and attestations for the cabin crew, issued pursuant to Article 8 of the Basic Regulation;
Certificates for aerodromes, certificates for ATM/ANS providers, licences and medical certificates for air traffic controllers, certificates for air traffic controller training organisations, certificates for aero medical centres and aero medical examiners responsible for air traffic controllers, certificates for persons
etc
Simple as that - a complete non event.
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But how many people have UK licences? - don't most have EASA licences which will evaporate? Does the CAA have the capacity to issue them all with UK licences in time? Or will there be an ORS "deeming" EASA licences to be UK licences, renewed from month to month with all the uncertainty that brings, until the CAA get their act together? Have they started hiring and training yet? Is the legislation they need already in the parliamentary timetable?
Plastic PPRuNer
"…if you vote for something you do have to accept the risk that you might actually get it."
Yup, dead right. And all the folk who wanted out (Make Britain Great Again!) are now starting to realize what they are going to lose.
It ain't gonna be fun…
Mac
Yup, dead right. And all the folk who wanted out (Make Britain Great Again!) are now starting to realize what they are going to lose.
It ain't gonna be fun…
Mac
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most often its a few steps rearward in the quest to advance far forward, as one who trained people with EASA licenses who were joining my former employer, the "standards" of competency were wide ranging from excellent to frightening, it made EASA look a bit of a farce really....so you Brits, grin and bear it, and go back to your excellent standard, and rise above the farce that is EASA..you'll be better off in the long run....this coming from an FAA license holder...
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"Simple as that - a complete non event."
Hmmm. Does the CAA have the capability (staff / expertise / systems) to take over everything? If not, can it be built in a year?
Having worked on large scale organisational change projects throughout my working life, the nativity of many of you about the scale of change required (these are safety critical issues - do you expect other regulators to 'just trust us') is staggering. This would be a major project, and no one has so much as lifted a pen to start it yet.
Hmmm. Does the CAA have the capability (staff / expertise / systems) to take over everything? If not, can it be built in a year?
Having worked on large scale organisational change projects throughout my working life, the nativity of many of you about the scale of change required (these are safety critical issues - do you expect other regulators to 'just trust us') is staggering. This would be a major project, and no one has so much as lifted a pen to start it yet.
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I'm not sure. For instance you can be an Indian Citizen and working in Dubai yet still hold an EASA Licence - so why UK citizens working in the UK will not be able to continue to hold a Licence is rather unclear.
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Just a quick reality check for those on here trying to turn this into a BREXIT bashing thread.
This is a perfect example of how and why it is so difficult to actually extricate yourself from the EU whether you want to or not. The EU just takes over so, so many parts of everyday life and everyday legislation - in this case huge chunks of Europe's aviation industry, both operators' and employees' ongoing ability ( and perhaps rights ) just to ' get on with it '.
If you like and / or agree with ever more centralised Government and one-size-fits-all legislation, then there's still the chance to avoid BREXIT and the possible difficulties that this particular change will bring to those of you based in the UK by taking yourself ( and family, perhaps ) to any number of non-UK operators who are screaming out for crew and engineers.
On the other hand, if you're a UK resident who feels optimistic about BREXIT, then just sit tight and wait for the probably massive increase in demand and resulting increase in T&Cs for suitably qualified crew if ( although I'm still sure doomsday won't happen ) the UK and EU agree to differ.
Really...It's that simple.
This is a perfect example of how and why it is so difficult to actually extricate yourself from the EU whether you want to or not. The EU just takes over so, so many parts of everyday life and everyday legislation - in this case huge chunks of Europe's aviation industry, both operators' and employees' ongoing ability ( and perhaps rights ) just to ' get on with it '.
If you like and / or agree with ever more centralised Government and one-size-fits-all legislation, then there's still the chance to avoid BREXIT and the possible difficulties that this particular change will bring to those of you based in the UK by taking yourself ( and family, perhaps ) to any number of non-UK operators who are screaming out for crew and engineers.
On the other hand, if you're a UK resident who feels optimistic about BREXIT, then just sit tight and wait for the probably massive increase in demand and resulting increase in T&Cs for suitably qualified crew if ( although I'm still sure doomsday won't happen ) the UK and EU agree to differ.
Really...It's that simple.
Last edited by Hussar 54; 14th Apr 2018 at 14:29. Reason: Resident...Not national...
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On the other hand, if you're a UK resident who feels optimistic about BREXIT, then just sit tight and wait for the probably massive increase in demand and resulting increase in T&Cs for suitably qualified crew if ( although I'm still sure doomsday won't happen ) the UK and EU agree to differ.
Really...It's that simple.
Really...It's that simple.
There remains doubt about Britain's right to open skies with the US after Brexit. Can you seriously imagine these questions will be answered before the end of this year? Forget it. Airlines will not remain British, except maybe charter operators.
Last edited by polax52; 14th Apr 2018 at 19:06.
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"NOTICE TO STAKEHOLDERS - WITHDRAWAL OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND EU AVIATION SAFETY RULES"
Certificates issued before the withdrawal date by the competent authorities of EASA on the basis of the provisions of the Basic Regulation and its implementing rules will no longer be valid as of the UK'swithdrawal date from the EU.
Pussies that the UK are, sometimes, quid pro quo and all that....
Certificates issued before the withdrawal date by the competent authorities of EASA on the basis of the provisions of the Basic Regulation and its implementing rules will no longer be valid as of the UK'swithdrawal date from the EU.
Pussies that the UK are, sometimes, quid pro quo and all that....
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Sorry, but you're totally unrealistic. It's much more likely that Airlines will shift their AOC's to Europe and require European licences and maybe European passports. They will be able to operate in and out of the UK from Europe.
There remains doubt about Britain's right to open skies with the US after Brexit. Can you seriously imagine these questions will be answered before the end of this year? Forget it. Airlines will not remain British, except maybe charter operators.
There remains doubt about Britain's right to open skies with the US after Brexit. Can you seriously imagine these questions will be answered before the end of this year? Forget it. Airlines will not remain British, except maybe charter operators.
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If this holds, then any aircraft containing any part designed or manufactured by any entity deriving its privileges from or through the UK CAA will be declared on brexit day to be not airworthy in EASA-land. Similarly, any licences depending wholly or in part on training carried out by or certified by any entity that derives its authority through the UK CAA will cease to be valid in EASA-land.
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IAG are shifting into Europe, a Norwegian takeover or reverse takeover would be a big part of that. Easyjet are doing the same. Virgin, we'll see?
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Look, I'm not pretending to be Liam Fox but this situation is very complicated and nothing is certain. Banks were a great investment in 2006.
IAG are shifting into Europe, a Norwegian takeover or reverse takeover would be a big part of that. Easyjet are doing the same. Virgin, we'll see?
IAG are shifting into Europe, a Norwegian takeover or reverse takeover would be a big part of that. Easyjet are doing the same. Virgin, we'll see?
Everyone will play hardball, and then realise where the UK lies, if EASA/Europe plays hardball with UK aviation, then AF/Lufty/KLM will suddenly find flying to the US takes an extra couple of hours.
There’s a huge shortage of (good) pilots in Europe. If in your world EASA suddenly say to fly a European aircraft you must have a European passport (as you imply) then Easy/Ryanair/Norwegian/Virgin/BA etc. Etc. Stop flying as most of their pilots are British.
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Absolute nonesense. IAG buying Norwegian (apparently, maybe) has nothing to do with IAG somehow shifting the business and disposing of BA (their BY FAR most valuable asset).
Everyone will play hardball, and then realise where the UK lies, if EASA/Europe plays hardball with UK aviation, then AF/Lufty/KLM will suddenly find flying to the US takes an extra couple of hours.
There’s a huge shortage of (good) pilots in Europe. If in your world EASA suddenly say to fly a European aircraft you must have a European passport (as you imply) then Easy/Ryanair/Norwegian/Virgin/BA etc. Etc. Stop flying as most of their pilots are British.
Everyone will play hardball, and then realise where the UK lies, if EASA/Europe plays hardball with UK aviation, then AF/Lufty/KLM will suddenly find flying to the US takes an extra couple of hours.
There’s a huge shortage of (good) pilots in Europe. If in your world EASA suddenly say to fly a European aircraft you must have a European passport (as you imply) then Easy/Ryanair/Norwegian/Virgin/BA etc. Etc. Stop flying as most of their pilots are British.
You, as I, do not know the reasons why there is now so much involvement between BA and Norwegian but it is reasonable to speculate that with only a year to go to Brexit and no final transition deal in place, certainly with regard to Aerospace, that IAG/BA need to to find a clear path to maintain access to their open skies deal with the U.S. That access is not currently guaranteed. You can wishful think but the various managements cannot.
We're not talking about access to Airspace, so your second paragraph is .....
irrelevant, let's say.
The final deal will come as a result of a lot of legalities, regarding what you are allowed to do when you're not in the EU, with a lot of additional input from vested interests such as KLM and Lufthansa. Those vested interests will not have the best interests of BA or Virgin at heart and if BA remains a non-EU company then those interests will have a lot to say about BA's future.
Your final paragraph; I understood that the result of the Brexit referendum was in large part about stopping freedom of movement. If I understand you correctly, there will not be freedom of movement from the EU to the UK but British Pilots will continue to enjoy the privileges that they currently enjoy. Well that's excellent news.
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you must have a European passport (as you imply) then Easy/Ryanair/Norwegian/
2. For the first two of those airlines, Brits are not in the majority, and Im guessing, likewise for norwegian.
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1. I think it is certain it will not be a requirement to have a EU passport to hold an EASA licence, and that's not the objective anyway. Right to work in a EU base is a separate issue, but loss of right to work in the EU is extremely unlikely, as that would be reciprocated by loss of EU citizens right to work in the UK (and they have far too much to lose in that scenario).
The point is though that there will be no new rights for the British to base themselves in the EU. Those who are currently based in the EU but maintain their British residence will be sent home. New IAG bases will need to be crewed with pilots who have the right to work in that location. I think that this is where we stand right now.
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If this holds, then any aircraft containing any part designed or manufactured by any entity deriving its privileges from or through the UK CAA will be declared on brexit day to be not airworthy in EASA-land. Similarly, any licences depending wholly or in part on training carried out by or certified by any entity that derives its authority through the UK CAA will cease to be valid in EASA-land.
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Is it? - if UK issued EASA licences are no longer valid and not recognized how are the European airlines going to be able to fly to the US from their home countries through airspace controlled, by what will be to them, unlicensed ATC's?. The Insurance implications will prevent that if nothing else.