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Has the glamour gone...

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Has the glamour gone...

Old 10th Apr 2018, 10:12
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The 'glamour' discussion seems to have centred on 'the job'. i.e. the time spent sitting with an aluminium tube strapped to your backside. That hasn't changed much. T's & C's have been eroded, true; FTL's have made it less appealing, certainly multi-sector short-haul. Captain's status/authority/respect has been eroded in many companies. There was the time when you walked in an office, people looked up, said hello and listened to what you said. Now expect to be ignored and treated with disdain as no doubt you are bringing trouble and are just another worker, perceived to be overpaid. Short-haul is perceived as bus-driving.
My mates, for a legacy carrier, still have the glamour. They are taking an a/c + 00's of pax across the world. It is still seen as responsible, if easier than it was. Skippers do seem to have more sway when preparing a 'heavy' for a 15 hour flight than a little puddle jumper doing 90min sectors. My mate takes his golf clubs, kite surfer, paraglider etc., to the destinations he's bid for, and enjoys a couple of days R&R down route, having spent a few hours in the bunk en-route to get there. That is the glamour, IMHO, that one thinks of. It's still there, but the stop overs can be less than they were. Much will depend on the union agreements and will only be found in the legacy carriers. I used to fly charter to Caribbean, under old Italian FTL's, that gave us 22hrs off. Utterly knackering. My union mates enjoyed somewhat longer.
The glamour can still be there, just more difficult to find. Flogging the oceans for hours on end might be glamorous if you are an aviation/meteorology nut, but can also be deadly boring. Bring back the sextant/protractor/dividers and plotting chart and give you something to do, and perhaps the 'sense of achievement' might return.
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Old 10th Apr 2018, 11:05
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I never bothered with an ATPL, the writing was on the wall that driving a jet was equivalent to driving a long distance bus or a train but with less respect than the train driver.
Flying was much more fun and a lot more interesting hacking an AN2 then a Twotter or a Caravan around the game reserves. Every day different, great places and great people.
OTOH the African life is not to many people's taste.
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Old 10th Apr 2018, 11:56
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Last night it was tipping it down with rain, so I gave the bus company a call for some crew transport. They said they couldn't help, as they were busy transporting an arriving group, with children, who were too drunk to walk to arrivals....

....so yes, the glamour is long gone.....
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Old 10th Apr 2018, 12:06
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The glamour was gone the day Pan Am towed their last seaplane out of the ocean
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Old 10th Apr 2018, 13:54
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Originally Posted by ZFT
Still somewhat tough to blame incompetence on the aircraft!
Too easy to write it off to incompetence. The typical light airplane is not a serious IMC platform except for getting through some stratus.
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Old 10th Apr 2018, 15:16
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The fact is about 90% of contributors to this thread wouldn't even have an airline career had it not been for the mass explosion in cheap airline travel (and all the nasty sacrifices employees have to make in order to keep it cheap).

In a parallel universe somewhere, most of us are complaining about having to compete with about 5,000 others for one job.
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Old 10th Apr 2018, 16:14
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Too easy to write it off to incompetence. The typical light airplane is not a serious IMC platform except for getting through some stratus.
Many light aircraft have an excellent instrument fit.

The problem is that few private pilots are instrument rated and those who do have an IR often do not fly enough IMC hours to be properly current.

A look at the accident reports shows that the vast majority of weather related deaths are attributable to VFR flights continuing into IMC. Getthereitis is still the big killer and Darwin will continue to weed out the overconfident.
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Old 10th Apr 2018, 18:52
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004
Precisely right, JHR. Business schools across the US slowly dropped requirements for ethics courses so that today.
Really? So, 3 credit hours worth of ethics would instill it in students? This is not AIDS or ebola, which you contract by contacting a contaminated surface!. It requires a lot more to develop ethics, and it is not the job of schools to do that!
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 08:37
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Someone once said that a human conscience is an extremely fragile construct and it requires support from institutions, family, and society to maintain integrity.

It requires a lot more to develop ethics, and it is not [just] the job of schools to do that!

I agree, with the bracketed addition.

Originally Posted by Sunamer
Really? So, 3 credit hours worth of ethics would instill it in students?
Not quite. It's a youth full of indoctrination. School, religion, society, one's family, and of course, the company one keeps - which leads to me ask you this: What do you see as the primary cause of the loss of ethics in the past half-century? I blame the slow societal acceptance of unfettered greed.
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 08:52
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Originally Posted by bloom
The glamour was gone the day Pan Am towed their last seaplane out of the ocean

No, when Imperial Airways did it......!!!!
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 10:50
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Originally Posted by SSDK
Ehhh... Where do you actually get "glamour" these days? Banking? Medicine? Engineering? Tech? I think many of us are in a bit of a "bubble" when it comes to aviation. The decline in T&C's are present in most industries these days unfortunately. I for one do not envy my friends and family who has to deal with overtime, office politics and the dreaded (well for me anyway) 9-5 rutine! Before aviation I got to be part of all that and I will never ever go back if I can avoid it!

With that said, I can only recommend that everyone joins a union and stay active in it. I'm all for us fighting for better or preserved conditions. By the sound of it, a lot of people in this forum seem to be caught in really bad jobs out there...

I'm in Low cost (europe) with 15 years of flying experience and I still love my job. I'm well aware of the work/life balance issues that goes with it, but for me it's still very much worth my time and effort!

If you find yourself in a position where you have lost the love of the job or the industry, there is only one thing to do: ACT! You don't like the T&C's? You hate you colleagues? You hate nightstops? Do something! Get a new job or participate in the union work!

It will be a win/win for everyone! Your colleagues will be free of all the eternal moaning in the cruise and you just might find the spark that made you start in the first place! I know it's easier said than done, but what is the alternative?

I sometimes wonder if this mismatch between the "glamour" vs. "Reality" of being a pilot is due to social media, unrealistic propaganda by the flight schools or just an overall trend in our society. I mean, did anyone who did just 2 seconds of research really think that being a pilot contains any sort of "glamour"? It could be interesting to get a proper definition of that. It would certainly put things into perspective!

I know I might take a lot of Flak for being "too positive" but I really don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be...
There is no glamour in medicine, take it from me. Especially in hospital work; abusive patients and relatives, intransigent hospital managers, et al. GP work is boring unless you can get into private medicine. The NHS is badly broken so if any of you disgruntled airline pilots feel like a change of career, re-train as a doctor (if you're still in your twenties and have good A-level grades), or maybe an RGN or some ancillary medical job. I guarantee you'll want to be back flying commercially again pretty quickly. Several of my colleagues left GP work to train as commercial pilots and seem to be happier than at any time when they were practising medicine. I fly for pleasure and the day job is medicine: I know what I'd rather do but for me now it's too late. My dream of being an airline pilot is now lived out through my son who is an FO with a major carrier and who turned down a place at Uni to study medicine because he wanted to achieve his dream
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 12:24
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For anyone looking for ‘glamour’ whatever that might be to anyone who looks for it. The old meaning was enchantment, magic.

The enchantment, joy, and magic of aviation, of flying, remains there for anyone who delights in being able to the air in whatever craft they have access to.

As far back as I am able to remember, my first flight in an Empire flying boat in Kenya at the age of three, and yes I remember it as clearly as if it were yesterday; to my first flight at the controls of a 150 from Hurn in the 60’s as a student pilot at sixteen, in the the ATC cadets at controls of a T21 at Tangmere, to the present time at the controls of a open single seat gyro with A/S Alt, and Compass I have thanked my creator for the joy that it has given me.

From Tiger Moths from Thruxton, Cessnas over the Congo, Zambia, DC3 and 4’s over Libya, Kenya Tanzania and Uganda, Lears, Sabreliners, BAC11’s, 727’s Citations worldwide. Instruction, land and sea, oil field support, bush charter, airlines, executive, and recreation, the ‘glamour’ joy and magic of flight has never left me.

It was never a ‘job’ it was a never ending source of pleasure and joy, whether paying for it, or being paid to do it, flight... ’to have slipped the surly bonds’... has never ceased to have a magic, an excitement, and a truly wonderful experience I feel blessed to have experienced.
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 12:45
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Originally Posted by Brat
For anyone looking for ‘glamour’ whatever that might be to anyone who looks for it. The old meaning was enchantment, magic.

The enchantment, joy, and magic of aviation, of flying, remains there for anyone who delights in being able to the air in whatever craft they have access to.

As far back as I am able to remember, my first flight in an Empire flying boat in Kenya at the age of three, and yes I remember it as clearly as if it were yesterday; to my first flight at the controls of a 150 from Hurn in the 60’s as a student pilot at sixteen, in the the ATC cadets at controls of a T21 at Tangmere, to the present time at the controls of a open single seat gyro with A/S Alt, and Compass I have thanked my creator for the joy that it has given me.

From Tiger Moths from Thruxton, Cessnas over the Congo, Zambia, DC3 and 4’s over Libya, Kenya Tanzania and Uganda, Lears, Sabreliners, BAC11’s, 727’s Citations worldwide. Instruction, land and sea, oil field support, bush charter, airlines, executive, and recreation, the ‘glamour’ joy and magic of flight has never left me.

It was never a ‘job’ it was a never ending source of pleasure and joy, whether paying for it, or being paid to do it, flight... ’to have slipped the surly bonds’... has never ceased to have a magic, an excitement, and a truly wonderful experience I feel blessed to have experienced.
Hear hear; I second that. That said the industry has lost its respect for those at the pointy end (and others), without whom it could not function, although the bean counters clearly wish they could.
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 21:03
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Originally Posted by PA28161
There is no glamour in medicine, take it from me. Especially in hospital work; abusive patients and relatives, intransigent hospital managers, et al. GP work is boring unless you can get into private medicine. The NHS is badly broken so if any of you disgruntled airline pilots feel like a change of career, re-train as a doctor (if you're still in your twenties and have good A-level grades), or maybe an RGN or some ancillary medical job. I guarantee you'll want to be back flying commercially again pretty quickly. Several of my colleagues left GP work to train as commercial pilots and seem to be happier than at any time when they were practising medicine. I fly for pleasure and the day job is medicine: I know what I'd rather do but for me now it's too late. My dream of being an airline pilot is now lived out through my son who is an FO with a major carrier and who turned down a place at Uni to study medicine because he wanted to achieve his dream
Never posted here before, and lurked for many many years. But I feel forced too by this post... I’m a happy, intelligent, satisfied GP. I get involved in people’s lives, and make a real difference to them and do some proper high level medical stuff. I’m living my best life, coming to the end of a career I don’t regret and I’d encourage others into. And I’ve got friends who are satisfied hospital Drs too.

I have enough friends and acquaintances who are pilots to know that aviation isn’t always brilliant either. But who obviously love it still. If I hated my day job I’d walk, and perhaps some on this thread should think about where they are. Live is too short. YOLO etc... And patients and passengers don’t need people who hate their job.

The glamour has gone from almost everything, but there’s still fun to be had. In aviation and medicine we are no longer little tin gods, but there is still some respect, status and the prospect of a decent life.

Anyway. Back to you Professionals. I’ll tiptoe away...

Last edited by stoatsbrother; 11th Apr 2018 at 21:43.
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 06:06
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Glamour in aviation. Reminds me of an old black & white add with some twenty something Home Counties bloke riding off into the sunset in his Triumph Spitfire with his latest bit of fluff in the passenger seat. A VC10 stands graciously in the background. The advert was for BEA and BOAC and called on “exceptional young gentlemen..”
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 08:23
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No glamour any more, but... "save me from having to join the commuter rush, and I will never complain about doing a walkround at 3 am on a cold, snowy morning"

That worked for forty years.
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 02:19
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Great replies all around and very entertaining reading so far, thanks.
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 06:23
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My only glimpse at the "old life" comes from watching Airline Pilot on youtube, that film about VC-10 trainees... things seemed so much more personal then, especially the training. It was like another universe, however it was 1968....

I am not sure of the VC-10 training captains name now (I did look it up I was that enthralled), although I recall he was a WWII hero with a few gongs, but I'll never forget the way he came across, a true gentleman with considerable charm, deeply impressed me, even on film nearly fifty years later.
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 09:49
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From the antipodes it was an oversupply, junior instructors training the next generation of instructors, a landmass well suited to the aircraft. Regular Air
Force pilots finished their tour led to a ready supply.

Then there was a splintering strike in 1989, most pilots today were however not flying, yet the stories would resonate as the new guy heard from the old guy, be careful.

Pilots there lacked the stomach for a fight with references even today of 'that year'. The growth of the accountant driven Low Fare Airline, drove more of the Cost of business at pilots, who were still in abundant supply.

In 2011 the Qantas International pilots were involved with a protracted and what in hindsight was a manufactured and acrimonious campaign (by the company). The pilots had begun to forget 'that year' as the next generation began to inhabit cockpits and as the stories began to slip into the rear vision mirror, the pilots though it was time to redress terms and conditions. Maybe management knew this.

Pilot actions amounted to approved Industrial action which included;

  1. Wearing a red rather than black uniform tie
  2. Making an inflight announcement about Qantas pilots, tradition and the proud history
They and domestic Qantas pilots (separate contract) who were not involved in any industrial action were grounded and locked out.

The problem fundamentally is a denigration of operational jobs, be they gold miners or oil rig workers. For friends there (at QF) the last remnants of a career vapourised. To this day it is simply a job.

As the global shortage bites and airline management scramble for solutions that fail to address the vast power imbalance as it exists in most airlines, it is time, ever so gently for pilots as Ryan air pilots ably demonstrated to push back.

The good news is that the balance will be restored, not from a bitter and divisive fight, rather simple demographics. For once, pilots are on the right side. They need do very little other than watch in slight amusement as weasel words, then idle threats the appeals to 'professionalism' consume the working day of the MBA management class. This management class is going to understand that without pilots it grows increasingly difficult to secure Operating Revenue.

Maybe the glamour has gone, the holiday once started when one conceived of the destination, the hotel and went to the travel agent. The mind could be on 'holiday' imagining the fun weeks before one traveled. These days with the onerous Orwellian overreach of airport security, privacy invasion and that extra row of seats, one has to wait until the hotel or resort before actually relaxing!

The glamour has gone from almost everything, but there’s still fun to be had. In aviation and medicine we are no longer little tin gods, but there is still some respect, status and the prospect of a decent life.
If one had worked in the MBA management 'administrative side' of airlines, one would notice that many love aviation. They just don't like pilots.

Having asked will get an honest answer on occasion that they 'wanted to be a pilot but..' It mustn't be nice to go to work every day with envy for others a constant companion.
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 10:02
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Nice first post, Stoatsbrother. Don't wait so long next time.
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