How not to evacuate a plane

[Gauges and Dials]

Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight

It's never EVER appropriate for the SLF to decide to commence an emergency evac, unless the aircraft has crashed - I don't undertand how there can be debate on this...

Sweeping statements like this are almost always wrong. I can think of dozens of scenarios in which a passenger is right to commence an emergency evac. Two off the top of my head:

1. Plane on stand; engines off; pax sitting near rear exit; hijacker racing toward cockpit; hijacker not yet in control of aircraft; crew all busy with hijacker.
2. Plane on stand; engines off; rapidly spreading fire breaks out two rows ahead of passenger who is seated at emergency exit...

[Gauges and Dials]

Originally Posted by Adambrau

As a NYer who lived through 9/11 (granted a unique horror), workers in the South Tower were told to remain in place and all was safe.

This.

Please read it again.

If you still think that it is always correct to follow instructions coming across a PA system from someone who appears to be in a position of authority, please read it a third time.

If you still think that everyone should always obey the voice on the PA, then I don't think you and I can have a very useful conversation here.

[DirtyProp]

Fair enough.
Since the cattle was so eager to take responsibility for their own safety, may we expect them to take responsibility for the injuries they caused to the lady? Or will they expect the carrier to pay for it?

[SeenItAll]

While I do not know the exact language the captain used, but if he said only that the source of the smoke was external to the plane and not that the source was just the exhaust from a backfiring tug, could that not be interpreted by PAX as "there is a raging fire right outside the plane, but not to worry, it has not breached the fuselage." There are many examples of fires that are initially external to the fuselage quickly entering it. I would hesitate to say the PAX were idiots to have sought to evacuate.

[scifi]

Yes.. Quite agree.. Once the cabin was filled with acrid fumes, the flight was going nowhere. Even if there was no fire, would you like to sit with your clothes reeking of diesel fuel at the start of your holiday or business trip.?
.

[Gauges and Dials]

Originally Posted by DirtyProp

Fair enough.
Since the cattle was so eager to take responsibility for their own safety, may we expect them to take responsibility for the injuries they caused to the lady? Or will they expect the carrier to pay for it?

If you habitually refer to your paying customers as "cattle," may I suggest that you might be a lot happier flying for FedEx or Air Mobility Command rather than for an airline?

From the CxO suite right down to the frontline staff, airlines seem to have a terribly hard time coming to terms with the fact that they are in the hospitality business, not operating an industrial concern.

[Adambrau]

Originally Posted by Gauges and Dials

This.

Please read it again.

If you still think that it is always correct to follow instructions coming across a PA system from someone who appears to be in a position of authority, please read it a third time.

If you still think that everyone should always obey the voice on the PA, then I don't think you and I can have a very useful conversation here.

My point was that I have great respect for cockpit and cabin crew, and I listen to instructions as a pax. Very rarely, there are genuine situations where pax will question the authority. We don't need to agree, no offense taken.

[parabellum]

From the CxO suite right down to the frontline staff, airlines seem to have a terribly hard time coming to terms with the fact that they are in the hospitality business, not operating an industrial concern.

Not so. Scheduled and chartered aviation is definitely the transport business, the hospitality business takes over and ends at the hotel. What aviation professionals do get fed up with is passengers who have bought a ticket on a scheduled or charter service but think they have just exclusively chartered a jet. Expecting everyone will bow and scrape accordingly whilst acceding to their every whim, including allowing them to evacuate the aircraft if they feel like it because they think they know better than the trained professionals. Trained professionals who have every bit as much concern for their own safety as they do for their passengers.

[Tango and Cash]

Originally Posted by Gauges and Dials

From the CxO suite right down to the frontline staff, airlines seem to have a terribly hard time coming to terms with the fact that they are in the hospitality business, not operating an industrial concern.

Yes, we "cattle" want safe, efficient, reasonably on-time operations, but some of us would prefer being treated like customers from time to time.

[Gauges and Dials]

Originally Posted by parabellum

Not so. Scheduled and chartered aviation is definitely the transport business, the hospitality business takes over and ends at the hotel. What aviation professionals do get fed up with is passengers who have bought a ticket on a scheduled or charter service but think they have just exclusively chartered a jet. Expecting everyone will bow and scrape accordingly whilst acceding to their every whim, including allowing them to evacuate the aircraft if they feel like it because they think they know better than the trained professionals. Trained professionals who have every bit as much concern for their own safety as they do for their passengers.

You're kind of making my point for me.

[DirtyProp]

Originally Posted by Gauges and Dials

If you habitually refer to your paying customers as "cattle," may I suggest that you might be a lot happier flying for FedEx or Air Mobility Command rather than for an airline?

From the CxO suite right down to the frontline staff, airlines seem to have a terribly hard time coming to terms with the fact that they are in the hospitality business, not operating an industrial concern.

You didn't answer the question.
Who's to take responsibility for that injured person? The cattle or the carrier?

And yes, I call them cattle because they behaved exactly like such.
You wanna be called Passenger? Start behaving like one.

[Chris2303]

Originally Posted by parabellum

Not so. Scheduled and chartered aviation is definitely the transport business, the hospitality business takes over and ends at the hotel. What aviation professionals do get fed up with is passengers who have bought a ticket on a scheduled or charter service but think they have just exclusively chartered a jet. Expecting everyone will bow and scrape accordingly whilst acceding to their every whim, including allowing them to evacuate the aircraft if they feel like it because they think they know better than the trained professionals. Trained professionals who have every bit as much concern for their own safety as they do for their passengers.

And most of we aviation professionals are human and we'd appreciate being treated with respect.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by parabellum

Trained professionals who have every bit as much concern for their own safety as they do for their passengers.

With some notable, heroic exceptions that we shouldn't forget.

"Miss Harrison was left alone to the task of shepherding passengers to the rear door and helping them out of the aircraft. She encouraged some passengers to jump from the machine and pushed out others. With flames and explosions all around her, making an escape from the tail of the machine impossible, she directed her passengers to another exit while she remained at her post. She was finally overcome while trying to save an elderly cripple who was seated in one of the last rows and whose body was found close to that of the stewardess. Miss Harrison was a very brave young lady who gave her life in her utter devotion to duty"

(from Jane Harrison's George Cross citation)

[wiggy]

At the risk of re-entering the fray....TBH personally I'm not sure some of the language helps, but:

1. 9/11 has been brought up as perhaps justification for self help/ DIY whenever any threat is perceived. Can I ask what the current advice for evacuation from "ultra" high rise business premises in the States?

2. During a wide body evacuation a handful of years back a cabin crew member was very very nearly ejected onto the tarmac by a panicking passenger who refused to respect the shouted commands being given to "wait, wait....." and/or recognise the fact that the slide she was diving for was yet to fully inflate...if the crew member had actually fallen she would almost certainly have suffered serious injury or perhaps death..luckily she was restrained (i.e. her clothing grabbed) by another passenger who wasn't rushing headlong for the opening at all costs......

There are two sides to this...so I'll state this one last time for the hard of reading - there are very real risks to a self initiated DIY evacuation. That said, well, if you are still minded to rush headlong for the doors, just please don't injure or kill anybody else en-route.

[PA28161]

Originally Posted by Herod

I found that, providing the cabin crew were seated, a little dab on the brakes before coming onto stand provided a salutary lesson.

Well said! A friend of mine, SFO at the late Monarch, did this once when taxiing to the stand at BHX. It had the desired effect

[Hipennine]

Just a small point, but perhaps of critical importance, is the volume of flight deck announcements a pre-boarding check? I would say that on circa 25% of the flights I take, the FD announcements are so quiet as to be unintelligible. (unlike some of the CC announcements which are loud unintelligible gabble).

[Council Van]

Originally Posted by scifi

Yes.. Quite agree.. Once the cabin was filled with acrid fumes, the flight was going nowhere. Even if there was no fire, would you like to sit with your clothes reeking of diesel fuel at the start of your holiday or business trip.?
.

Grow up and show that you have some common sense!

So 150 people don't smell of acrid diesel fumes but some lady has serious head injuries. Priorities, it is obviously more important to put your clothes before what could be life changing injuries.

The aircraft was fully serviceable, it was deemed to be safer to stay on board by the Captain, he clearly made the correct decision as by leaving before the aircraft had been shut down someone was very badly injured.

[Gauges and Dials]

Originally Posted by DirtyProp

You didn't answer the question.
Who's to take responsibility for that injured person? The cattle or the carrier?

And yes, I call them cattle because they behaved exactly like such.
You wanna be called Passenger? Start behaving like one.

That's an awfully high horse you're on there, Captain; the folks in the back are not military under your command, they are ordinary people who behave as ordinary people behave.

Human beings sometimes do things which turn out to be irrational and counterproductive. It's part of who we are.

In this particular case, it would appear that the passengers behaved according to human nature, to their detriment.

[Gauges and Dials]

Originally Posted by parabellum

Expecting everyone will bow and scrape accordingly whilst acceding to their every whim

I think 95% of passengers would happily skip the 'bow and scrape' bit and would be delighted if the airline staff would act professional, follow the airline's own rules and procedures consistently, and tell the truth.

because they think they know better than the trained professionals. Trained professionals who have every bit as much concern for their own safety as they do for their passengers.

We're forgetting that passengers, in deciding whether or not to listen to the PA, aren't going to draw a distinction between the trained professionals in the cockpit and other "airline employees" (a group that, in fact, includes ground staff at the airport and people who aren't even airline employees), and to the extent that these "airline employees" have demonstrated a general lack of a clue, have acted capriciously, have withheld important information, or have outright lied, passengers will decide accordingly whether or not to follow instructions.

[Gauges and Dials]

Originally Posted by wiggy

:

1. 9/11 has been brought up as perhaps justification for self help/ DIY whenever any threat is perceived. Can I ask what the current advice for evacuation from "ultra" high rise business premises in the States?

A reasonable assumption would be that any announcement you hear on the high-rise building's PA system is not being made by a person who has knowledge of the situation, but was recorded years or months earlier in a studio and is being automatically played by a control system based on sensor data. The sensor data may or may not be good, and the control system may or may not have been programmed correctly.

A second reasonable assumption would be that any employee of the building management company has, as his or her objectives, in declining order of priority:

1. Don't disrupt operations
2. Don't create bad PR
3. Don't disturb the tenants
4. Keep people safe