Alaska Airlines FO Alleges Rape by Captain on MSP Layover

[Gauges and Dials]

Originally Posted by Deltasierra010

... and the only answer is a no fraternization rule.

That is by no means the only answer. Another answer, for example, would be for everyone to internalize the basic principle of not raping your fellow crewmember.

[pilot9249]

Originally Posted by Cows getting bigger

I'll dive-on in again. This particular event is very much 'water under the bridge' in that there will/will not be enough evidence to prove/disprove.

The more important thing society needs to resolve is the culture where some still think that using sexual assault, or indeed alleging sexual assault, is in any way acceptable.

#metoo is empowering people so that they no longer whisper in the corner how Captain F'Knuckle has always liked a quick fumble in the galley at FL390; they are being given the confidence to shout out immediately, not 10 years downstream. By doing so you start to change the culture, in a small way, such that F'Nuckle may just think twice before embarking on their sworded quest.

We'll never know if there's enough evidence.

Complainant chooses not to pursue a criminal case, avoiding the only appropriate venue.

#metoo is encouraging people to avoid using the proper venue, rather than highlighting any problems that should be fixed with it and encouraging others to insist it must work.

#courtsfailedme would be much more useful, but far less topical and marketable.

We're left proposing justice by popularity.

Most of us left that behind in the school playground.

Ugh.

[ElZilcho]

Originally Posted by Gauges and Dials

That is by no means the only answer. Another answer, for example, would be for everyone to internalize the basic principle of not raping your fellow crewmember.

If only it were that simple, and every man accused of Rape was actually a "Rapist".

Many lives have been ruined, not just in Aviation, due to drunken one night stands and the regret that follows. In the modern world, a Women is unable to give "Consent" if intoxicated but an Erection seems to be all is required on the Man's behalf. As such, if both parties are intoxicated, the Rapist and the Victim are decided along gender lines.

This is not to say that many men haven't coerced women into sex while intoxicated, but that the definition of Rape has become blurred in recent times. A women who drives drunk is responsible for her actions, but a women who has sex while intoxicated was unable to give consent and was thus raped? That's the narrative these days.

I might sound like a misogynistic bastard to some, but I witnessed the devastation first hand many years ago. While on a layover, a Flight Attendant was very clearly on the prowl and had her eyes on a colleague of mine, she'd enquired with us as to his availability during the flight, wasn't shy about her intentions in the Galley, and we all saw her drag him off during the night.

When word back to her husband, the accusations came out. No amount of witness statements from us or her colleagues, even though they prevented prosecution, could undo the damage done by accusation.

I don't pretend that Women aren't overly represented when it comes to sexual assaults nor how difficult it can be for them to come forward, there are plenty of pigs in this world who should be castrated. But I also don't pretend that People don't lie about Crimes, not just Rape, for a variety of nefarious reasons.

The percentage of False vs Legitimate accusations is irrelevant. The fact that People do lie forces to authorities to do a thorough investigation, which is extremely difficult in cases of "Date rape" without any toxicology evidence.

It's a sad world we live in.
Slam-Click seeya tomorrow.

[porterpat]

Cynical Sid says it all

[ehwatezedoing]

Originally Posted by sptraveller

#metoo is encouraging people to avoid using the proper venue, rather than highlighting any problems that should be fixed with it and encouraging others to insist it must work.

No.

This #meetoo movement is to encourage women to speak up about sexual assault/harassment.
Victims that would have done nothing about it otherwise.
Really, if all of them could simply write #meetoo as status, we would understand the magnitude of the problem.

Once knowing that, you start to fixe it and that’s what is more or less happening.

[4468]

#MeToo is about bypassing the inconvenience of proving your allegation. No more, no less.

It either:

Allows evil rapists to continue at large, when they should be locked away.

Or

It ruins the lives of innocent men.

Either way. Both victims, and women in general, would be far better served reporting their allegations to the police.

[Mac the Knife]

"…an airline captain that drugs his copilot a few hours before they are due to fly …"

Yes, I thought that that was extremely bizarre. And very dangerous, unless he planned to dob her, or get someone else to dob her pre-flight.

I've been a naughty boy in my time, but that seems an awful lot of risk-taking just for a shag (and with a semi-conscious woman at that).

A man who would do that sort of thing would be bound to have built up a reputation as an ass-grabber to be avoided, I would have thought.

Did he have such a reputation? Were there any prior "incidents"?

Just asking.

Mac

[costalpilot]

Originally Posted by Windshearescape

Surely someone with her age and experience would know to report such a serious occurance to the police?

e
surely...unless she was in shock and intimidated by the undoubtedly severe consequences ...and unable to process all this in a few days because shes human and her entire professional life hangs in the balance.

gimmie a break.

[costalpilot]

Originally Posted by bensworld

................. Heterosexual white men acting the victim is a sadly typical representation of the old guard. ......................

your politics is showing.

[costalpilot]

back in the day my airline, (which was absorbed by Delta) reacted to any sort of sexism related complaint with alacrity and alarm. It was rare, but it happened, and the few pilots who found themselves so charged were in big trouble from the get go.

Alaska has taken a different approach. Considering the social climate today, this is surprising, and If I had to guess, untenable.

I cannot recall one company standing firm against a "sexism" challenge of any kind in the past several years. Maybe I'm wrong, but I predict a quick turnabout by Alaska. I wouldn't want to be this guy.

Or girl. No matter the outcome. I cant imagine why either him or her would rationally choose to endanger their career in this way.

Both are talented professionals with a lot to lose.

additionally, the hotel videos as portrayed in the media are certainly not evidence of a rape, but they are troubling for him if the description is accurate, as are the accounts of the events surrounding their removal from the flight.

[A Squared]

Originally Posted by costalpilot

Or girl. No matter the outcome. I cant imagine why either him or her would rationally choose to endanger their career in this way.

You could say essentially the same thing about virtually anyone accused of a crime. "I can't imagine why XXX would rationally choose to endanger thier (Career,/freedom from incarceration/reputation/personal wealth/etc, etc, etc) in this way. Yet, people do things every day whcih cause them to lose their personal freedom, careers, savings accounts, families, community standing. That line of reasoning really sheds no meaningful light on whether or not someone committed some act whcih might bring grave consequences.

Originally Posted by costalpilot

additionally, the hotel videos as portrayed in the media are certainly not evidence of a rape, but they are troubling for him if the description is accurate, as are the accounts of the events surrounding their removal from the flight.

Have you seen the hotel videos? I haven't. all I have seen is a description of what the FO has claimed someone else told her was in the video.

[oldchina]

This lawsuit is about workplace rape.
Airlines have good lawyers and they'll put up a fight.
Is a crew hotel a workplace? That's for the court to decide.
In other words, were they on the job?

[galaxy flyer]

I think you’ll find, if you are traveling on company business, occupying a company-arranged and paid lodging, it’s a work place occurrence.

Airlines will only fight, if its in their interest to do so. Defending someone who the evidence shows may have raped or, even had questionable sex with, isn’t in their interest.

GF

[costalpilot]

disregard.

[costalpilot]

Originally Posted by A Squared

You could say essentially the same thing about virtually anyone accused of a crime. "I can't imagine why XXX would rationally choose to endanger thier (Career,/freedom from incarceration/reputation/personal wealth/etc, etc, etc) in this way. Yet, people do things every day whcih cause them to lose their personal freedom, careers, savings accounts, families, community standing. That line of reasoning really sheds no meaningful light on whether or not someone committed some act whcih might bring grave consequences.




Have you seen the hotel videos? I haven't. all I have seen is a description of what the FO has claimed someone else told her was in the video.

you might note the qualifiers in my reference to the videos. I didn't say anything about their accuracy.

yes, Im aware people do crazy things. that WAS the point. one of these two has done just that.

[costalpilot]

Originally Posted by oldchina

This lawsuit is about workplace rape.
Airlines have good lawyers and they'll put up a fight.
Is a crew hotel a workplace? That's for the court to decide.
In other words, were they on the job?

I predict they fold like a plastic lawn chair

Meet the Brash and Brilliant Lawyer Who Won?t Leave Ed Murray Alone | Seattle Weekly

[SLF3]

There have been a string of failed prosecutions for rape in the UK that have collapsed because the police failed to disclose evidence to the defence that proved beyond all reasonable doubt that the woman had consented. Mainly posts after the event on social media.

Under UK law the accused is identified but the alleged victim has anonymity: even after the case has collapsed. In some cases it took two years for the case to be dismissed. Not hard to imagine what the accused went through in the meantime.

Yes, rape is an appalling crime, and should be prosecuted. But some women lie. The fundamental principle of innocent until proven guilty should still apply. At the moment, at least in the UK, there seems to be a presumption that if rape is alleged a crime was commited: to the extent the police will bend the rules of evidence to secure a prosecution.

This attitude extends (at least in my industry) to the response to claims of sexual harassment in the workplace. You have to prove you didn’t do it, the presumption is you did.

So maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. But if he didn’t, does he deserve the treatment he is getting?

The pendulum has swung to far in favour of the woman.

[A Squared]

Originally Posted by costalpilot

you might note the qualifiers in my reference to the videos. I didn't say anything about their accuracy.

Yeah, I was more making the point generally. There can be a tendency to accept things at face value. Honestly, I briefly fell into this trap myself as the story emerged. The first article I read was pretty bare bones, just the broad details, and my though were more or less "Hmmm, He/said she said". The next article I read had all or most of the details we now see before and because of the way it was written, and perhaps because I wasn't reading carefully enough, it seemed like they had a lot of pretty damning evidence in terms of witness statements and surveillance video, and I shifted to "Hmm sounds like he may have done more or less what was alleged" Then when this popped up here, I re-read the article a little more carefully, and read some others and read the court filing, and came to the realization that every bit of evidence whcih is suggestive of a sexual assault has come from either her court filing, or from her interviews with the media. There's a world of difference between having hotel security video, and the description of what one person (who has a vested interest in the outcome and potentially an ulterior motive) claims they were told by someone else about the security video.

[A Squared]

Originally Posted by costalpilot

I predict they fold like a plastic lawn chair

Meet the Brash and Brilliant Lawyer Who Won?t Leave Ed Murray Alone | Seattle Weekly

Hmm, interesting. Reading some of the articles linked in that one, it seems that this guy has a habit of entering documents into the court record for no other purpose than to get them into the media.

[Airbubba]

Originally Posted by A Squared

Hmm, interesting. Reading some of the articles linked in that one, it seems that this guy has a habit of entering documents into the court record for no other purpose than to get them into the media.

Yep, as I observed here earlier:

Originally Posted by Airbubba

The suit appears long on accusations and short on evidence to me.

I've been told in other cases that the civil suit is sometimes filed to get things like internal HR documents, emails and investigation results into the court system and potentially into the public domain.

Since this discovery phase can be costly and possibly promote negative media coverage for the defendant, particularly in the #MeToo era, there is pressure to reach a settlement before the case goes to trial.