Alaska Airlines FO Alleges Rape by Captain on MSP Layover
Blind Squirrel, Pax and Kelvin have the right approach. She probably awoke, realised that this wasn't good then with a splitting headache and feeling crook headed off to get showered (remember the vomit?). She was clearly confused and probably embarrassed and possibly wasn't sure she had just drunk too much.
Then later after piecing together the "this isn't right" bits, how and where she woke up, the lets get the story straight conversation, the bruise and a growing feeling of dread she realised that she had probably been raped.
What to do.... she has probably showered a couple of times, its 24+ hours after the event (so will there be any DNA evidence), if she goes to the police and it turns out there is insufficient proof then her career is finished (probation etc).
All in all she's in a very tough position. Particularly if the pilot has long standing in the company etc.
Unfortunately, I'm guessing if its true that this isn't the first time the captain has drugged a victim. I wonder will we hear from more coming out of the woodwork?
Then later after piecing together the "this isn't right" bits, how and where she woke up, the lets get the story straight conversation, the bruise and a growing feeling of dread she realised that she had probably been raped.
What to do.... she has probably showered a couple of times, its 24+ hours after the event (so will there be any DNA evidence), if she goes to the police and it turns out there is insufficient proof then her career is finished (probation etc).
All in all she's in a very tough position. Particularly if the pilot has long standing in the company etc.
Unfortunately, I'm guessing if its true that this isn't the first time the captain has drugged a victim. I wonder will we hear from more coming out of the woodwork?
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I'm female, never been raped, not a pilot, tertiary educated and of above average intelligence - just. I wondered why she didn't report to the police but then I only have to think back to the odd time or two I have been sexually assaulted, not raped, and think about the utter confusion one is presented with in one's own head.
1. I can't believe this person I work with just did that?
2. Is it really as serious as I think?
3. Did it really happen?
4. Who do I tell?
I reported it to my manager, the response was "that's not good. better stay away from him."
Come on guys...it isn't clear cut even when totally sober. This woman's head would have been all over the place until the drug in her system wore off. This thread sounds like a total vilification of the "she" in order to lessen, or detract from, the culpability of the "he". One can't blame her for her actions given the attitude of the males one reads on this forum.
This can't possibly have been a one-off either. What's the bet other victims speak out now and every single one of them will be subjected to the scrutiny and misongynistic judgement by you holier-than-thou males who have never made a bad judgement call in your lives.
(I would like to mention I note not all viewpoints expressed on this thread by males lack support or compassion for this woman)
1. I can't believe this person I work with just did that?
2. Is it really as serious as I think?
3. Did it really happen?
4. Who do I tell?
I reported it to my manager, the response was "that's not good. better stay away from him."
Come on guys...it isn't clear cut even when totally sober. This woman's head would have been all over the place until the drug in her system wore off. This thread sounds like a total vilification of the "she" in order to lessen, or detract from, the culpability of the "he". One can't blame her for her actions given the attitude of the males one reads on this forum.
This can't possibly have been a one-off either. What's the bet other victims speak out now and every single one of them will be subjected to the scrutiny and misongynistic judgement by you holier-than-thou males who have never made a bad judgement call in your lives.
(I would like to mention I note not all viewpoints expressed on this thread by males lack support or compassion for this woman)
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This can't possibly have been a one-off either. What's the bet other victims speak out now and every single one of them will be subjected to the scrutiny and misongynistic judgement by you holier-than-thou males who have never made a bad judgement call in your lives.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
4EvahLearning.
Thanks for putting some balance into the argument. It does help to put the woman's point of view on it. I'm not coming down on either side here, just trying to get a balanced view of why it has turned out the way it has.
Thanks for putting some balance into the argument. It does help to put the woman's point of view on it. I'm not coming down on either side here, just trying to get a balanced view of why it has turned out the way it has.
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In the US, less than 50% of women report their rapes/assaults. Some of the reasons they don't report can be read right here in this thread.
I urge everyone reading this to try and be more understanding of other humans. I am trying to be more understanding myself...
I urge everyone reading this to try and be more understanding of other humans. I am trying to be more understanding myself...
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Looks like the story is getting traction in the activist #MeToo media movement. It appears that the alleged victim has hired an agent and will be making appearances on network morning shows next week.
On the basis of her experience of over a year as 'a pilot for a major airline' (six months of it on leave of absence) Ms. Pina says the issue of rape is not dealt with in the industry.
From the ABC News Good Morning America web page:
Alaska Airlines pilot accuses co-pilot of rape in lawsuit, calls it a 'not-dealt-with issue in our industry' - ABC News
On the basis of her experience of over a year as 'a pilot for a major airline' (six months of it on leave of absence) Ms. Pina says the issue of rape is not dealt with in the industry.
From the ABC News Good Morning America web page:
Alaska Airlines pilot accuses co-pilot [sic] of rape in lawsuit, calls it a 'not-dealt-with issue in our industry'
By Catherine Thorbecke
Sabina Ghebremedhin
Mar 16, 2018, 8:09 AM ET
An Alaska Airlines pilot who is suing her employer, claiming that she was drugged and raped by her co-pilot during a layover, said she believes that what happened to her is an industry-wide issue that is often "swept under the rug."
"I believe that this is an under-reported, swept-under-the-rug, not-dealt-with issue in our industry," Betty Pina, an Alaska Airlines first officer and former military pilot, told ABC News. "It's not just our airline."
Pina's lawsuit comes on the heels of the worldwide #MeToo and #TimesUp movements, which see hundreds of women speaking out against sexual harassment and misconduct, especially in the workplace.
The lawsuit argues that Engelien's "grossly abusive actions epitomize the necessity and purpose of the #MeToo movement."
By Catherine Thorbecke
Sabina Ghebremedhin
Mar 16, 2018, 8:09 AM ET
An Alaska Airlines pilot who is suing her employer, claiming that she was drugged and raped by her co-pilot during a layover, said she believes that what happened to her is an industry-wide issue that is often "swept under the rug."
"I believe that this is an under-reported, swept-under-the-rug, not-dealt-with issue in our industry," Betty Pina, an Alaska Airlines first officer and former military pilot, told ABC News. "It's not just our airline."
Pina's lawsuit comes on the heels of the worldwide #MeToo and #TimesUp movements, which see hundreds of women speaking out against sexual harassment and misconduct, especially in the workplace.
The lawsuit argues that Engelien's "grossly abusive actions epitomize the necessity and purpose of the #MeToo movement."
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Making a Police Matter into an Employment Matter
As we are seeing, it doesn't work well.
Harrassment, unwanted comments, touching, advances and suchlike are generally workplace matters that can be referred to HR.
Drugging and rape are for the police to handle. HR is simply unequipped to take over a criminal situation from the police.
Yes, the lady dropped the ball by not immediately calling the police or at least a rape crisis support center. Now that the criminal case can probably no longer be
made, she's trying to to get HR to play cop.
That said, waking up while still drugged and not knowing what happened, she was likely not fully rational at the moment. People are rarely at their best in a crime or accident scene. They are almost always taken by surprise.
Harrassment, unwanted comments, touching, advances and suchlike are generally workplace matters that can be referred to HR.
Drugging and rape are for the police to handle. HR is simply unequipped to take over a criminal situation from the police.
Yes, the lady dropped the ball by not immediately calling the police or at least a rape crisis support center. Now that the criminal case can probably no longer be
made, she's trying to to get HR to play cop.
That said, waking up while still drugged and not knowing what happened, she was likely not fully rational at the moment. People are rarely at their best in a crime or accident scene. They are almost always taken by surprise.
One of the posters up-thread mentioned the point about the FO being on probation when this event (a roofie in the wine, it would appear?) took place. That little tidbit adds another layer of worry about reporting what happened. The crew are already on the hot seat, as I understand the news story, since an FA called in and said "I think they were drinking" and after a call to the captain the crew was replaced. (Apologies if I have misunderstood that part).
Per accounts by my friends who joined the airline industry back in the 80's -- when on probation they don't even need to provide a reason to let you go. I suspect that is an oversimplification of the situation, but that's how it felt to a lot of new FO's whom I kept in touch with.
Beyond the confusion of the drugged state and the "WTF happened?" reaction the "if I report it I'll be done due to probation and being too much trouble to the company that I worked so hard to get a job with" ... that is a hell of a tough spot to be in for the FO.
The part that really grinds on my brain, though, is that they, the crew, the Captain and the FO, had a sector to fly the next day and someone put a roofie in the FO's glass of wine?
If that is in fact true, that's just effed up:
(1) don't treat people like that, would you want someone doing that to your daughter/sister?
(2) FFS, flight safety!
Per accounts by my friends who joined the airline industry back in the 80's -- when on probation they don't even need to provide a reason to let you go. I suspect that is an oversimplification of the situation, but that's how it felt to a lot of new FO's whom I kept in touch with.
Beyond the confusion of the drugged state and the "WTF happened?" reaction the "if I report it I'll be done due to probation and being too much trouble to the company that I worked so hard to get a job with" ... that is a hell of a tough spot to be in for the FO.
The part that really grinds on my brain, though, is that they, the crew, the Captain and the FO, had a sector to fly the next day and someone put a roofie in the FO's glass of wine?
If that is in fact true, that's just effed up:
(1) don't treat people like that, would you want someone doing that to your daughter/sister?
(2) FFS, flight safety!
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We usually do better in Rumors & News with accidents, incidents, and drunk pilots caught at check-in, because there is at least a modicum of fact.
Having said that, I trust justice will prevail for the principals in this episode.
If, in fact, the F/O was raped by the captain, I weep for her that the layover hotel did not become a crime scene at the time. If, in fact, he raped her and that was proven in a criminal court of law, he should have been sentenced to a very long jail term.
But, none of this happened on a timely basis.
We are now reduced to a civil action, which in cases like this, are always suspect, unlike a criminal proceeding with conviction.
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IMHO this is the problem with so many cases like this. Alaska Airlines is an airline, not an investigation agency. Like any other company it should not be expected to be competent to deal with this. It is not their responsibility. Rape is a criminal offence and should be dealt with by the police only.
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So here’s the problem.
One employee makes a very serious allegation against another employee. Yet due to the timing of the allegation, (never made to the police!) no ‘incontrovertible’ evidence is available.
Two reasonably plausible versions of events remain entirely possible.
Yet there’s an ‘outraged’ expectation that just making such a heinous allegation, without any reasonable due process, or ‘competent’ investigation should alone, be sufficient to end the career of one individual? In other words. The allegation is SO serious, it can’t possibly be wrong, so why bother requiring proof?
Can I just ask. In this #MeToo, #Time’sUp era. When did we jettison the fundamental principle of innocent until proven guilty?
The place to test allegations of serious criminal offences, is in a court of law. Not in the press. On daytime TV, or amongst Hollywood activists.
Nor frankly, in the HR department of an organisation, threatened with massive litigation, if they get their deliberations ‘wrong’!
One employee makes a very serious allegation against another employee. Yet due to the timing of the allegation, (never made to the police!) no ‘incontrovertible’ evidence is available.
Two reasonably plausible versions of events remain entirely possible.
Yet there’s an ‘outraged’ expectation that just making such a heinous allegation, without any reasonable due process, or ‘competent’ investigation should alone, be sufficient to end the career of one individual? In other words. The allegation is SO serious, it can’t possibly be wrong, so why bother requiring proof?
Can I just ask. In this #MeToo, #Time’sUp era. When did we jettison the fundamental principle of innocent until proven guilty?
The place to test allegations of serious criminal offences, is in a court of law. Not in the press. On daytime TV, or amongst Hollywood activists.
Nor frankly, in the HR department of an organisation, threatened with massive litigation, if they get their deliberations ‘wrong’!
Last edited by 4468; 17th Mar 2018 at 07:35.
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Another problem is that none of the action against the company or a private prosecution against him will put him in prison. IF he is guilty of this crime then the only place he should be is prison to protect others. Only the police can do that.
The problem is that she seems to have NOT reported this to the police, now I understand that a good amount of these types of assaults / attacks go unreported but unfortunately the lack of report makes this a 'nothing to see here' scenario.
I assume that there was no rape kit, blood samples or breath tests administered so what can actually be proven here...... nothing. It is a purely he said she said scenario. Expecting the airline to act on what is effectively an unfounded and impossible to prove allegation is a bit naive.
We can't have Pilots getting fired months down the track for a complaint like this, as it was said earlier, Alaskan Airlines is not an investigative body and expecting them to decide careers on the basis of this evidence is just not on. How do we know she was drugged, where is the evidence? How do we know they actually engaged in intercourse, where is the evidence? The complainant needs something a bit more solid that accusations if you ask me?
I assume that there was no rape kit, blood samples or breath tests administered so what can actually be proven here...... nothing. It is a purely he said she said scenario. Expecting the airline to act on what is effectively an unfounded and impossible to prove allegation is a bit naive.
We can't have Pilots getting fired months down the track for a complaint like this, as it was said earlier, Alaskan Airlines is not an investigative body and expecting them to decide careers on the basis of this evidence is just not on. How do we know she was drugged, where is the evidence? How do we know they actually engaged in intercourse, where is the evidence? The complainant needs something a bit more solid that accusations if you ask me?
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Reading the news reports carefully, it looks as if the female pilot's initial intention was to alert the company that one of their pilots was a serious problem. She didn't intend to report a rape and get him charged. I imagine she thought the company would investigate and take appropriate action.
Instead, the company effectively suspended her for six months and did nothing at all about the male pilot. I imagine they hoped she'd get fed up and leave, chalking it up to experience. When she didn't, they were forced to allow her back to work, where she discovered that this man was still flying, and still potentially being rostered with female pilots. Perhaps even herself.
It looks as if, at that point, she realised that she would have to go to law and expose both the pilot and the company in public.
Instead, the company effectively suspended her for six months and did nothing at all about the male pilot. I imagine they hoped she'd get fed up and leave, chalking it up to experience. When she didn't, they were forced to allow her back to work, where she discovered that this man was still flying, and still potentially being rostered with female pilots. Perhaps even herself.
It looks as if, at that point, she realised that she would have to go to law and expose both the pilot and the company in public.
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PaxBritannica
She is indeed reverting to lawyers to address her grievance.
It is for others to note however, that she is not seeking to prove her allegation of rape in a court of law, by going to the police. She merely demands her version of events be believed, whilst the alleged ‘attacker’s’ version must be discounted.
That is a big problem! A section of society is being encouraged to believe, they can make very serious allegations with impunity. Expecting the alleged ‘assailant’ to bear the consequences of such an accusation. Without there ever being any inconvenience of proving such an event actually took place!
She admits to being “infuriated that he’s still working there”.
Meanwhile the lawsuit for ‘unspecified damages’, (read, demand for a life changing sum of money!) rumbles on. At the same time apparently, as launching a media tour.
This is not the way to deal with rape, or rapists! It doesn’t get them off the streets. It protects nobody!
Though perhaps the bar is set lower when suing for damages? I believe the standard of proof required in civil cases (balance of probability) is lower than that required in criminal cases? (Beyond reasonable doubt)
She is indeed reverting to lawyers to address her grievance.
Now, Pina, 39, a Seattle-area resident and decorated Army chopper pilot who has been flying commercial flights for Alaska since 2016, is suing the airline. Her suit claims Alaska Airlines is liable for its captain's alleged drugging and raping of her that night, and for its subsequent failure to hold him accountable after she reported what happened to airline officials.
"I'm infuriated that he's still working there," Pina said of the accused captain, who she said remains on Alaska's active seniority list for pilots.
"I'm infuriated that he's still working there," Pina said of the accused captain, who she said remains on Alaska's active seniority list for pilots.
That is a big problem! A section of society is being encouraged to believe, they can make very serious allegations with impunity. Expecting the alleged ‘assailant’ to bear the consequences of such an accusation. Without there ever being any inconvenience of proving such an event actually took place!
She admits to being “infuriated that he’s still working there”.
Meanwhile the lawsuit for ‘unspecified damages’, (read, demand for a life changing sum of money!) rumbles on. At the same time apparently, as launching a media tour.
This is not the way to deal with rape, or rapists! It doesn’t get them off the streets. It protects nobody!
Though perhaps the bar is set lower when suing for damages? I believe the standard of proof required in civil cases (balance of probability) is lower than that required in criminal cases? (Beyond reasonable doubt)
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This is front page news because we have here what appears to possibly be a case of a tainted drink being used to facilitate a rape by one airline pilot of another. The victim here chose at first to seek justice within the organization of the airline involved. Finding that result to be less than satisfactory she is now seeking justice in a public forum.
The fact that the victim has allowed her name to be made public is a testament to her strength and her conviction that unacceptable behavior needs like this needs to be identified as such and actions taken to make sure that it does not happen again. As the father of two young adult daughters I applaud this pilot speaking out and feel that the future for my girls will be brighter and safer for the courage and voice of the victim here.
This story is a reminder that any problems that arise as a result of diversity in our work environments are most often not the responsibility of the few who are bringing a new look to our work forces. Problems are most often the responsibility of those in the majority who are unable to treat all with the respect and dignity that they deserve. The message to all who would take advantage of others in unlawful or unethical ways must be that there are many eyes watching them and many willing to use their voices to call for truth and justice.
I limit most of my contributions to PP to the technical discussion threads where I feel that I am most qualified to contribute. The entry in this thread questioning why the focus on this topic has motivated me to contribute here.
The fact that the victim has allowed her name to be made public is a testament to her strength and her conviction that unacceptable behavior needs like this needs to be identified as such and actions taken to make sure that it does not happen again. As the father of two young adult daughters I applaud this pilot speaking out and feel that the future for my girls will be brighter and safer for the courage and voice of the victim here.
This story is a reminder that any problems that arise as a result of diversity in our work environments are most often not the responsibility of the few who are bringing a new look to our work forces. Problems are most often the responsibility of those in the majority who are unable to treat all with the respect and dignity that they deserve. The message to all who would take advantage of others in unlawful or unethical ways must be that there are many eyes watching them and many willing to use their voices to call for truth and justice.
I limit most of my contributions to PP to the technical discussion threads where I feel that I am most qualified to contribute. The entry in this thread questioning why the focus on this topic has motivated me to contribute here.
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Remember OJ Simpson was found not guilty in the criminal trial, but subsequently found civilly liable in a subsequent civil trial. Justice was not served in that case.
