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Alaska Airlines FO Alleges Rape by Captain on MSP Layover

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Alaska Airlines FO Alleges Rape by Captain on MSP Layover

Old 19th Mar 2018, 08:42
  #101 (permalink)  

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Would it be possible for the Captain to sue the F.O. for libel, if he believes himself to be innocent? That might bring more evidence to light. Just a thought.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 10:00
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I'll dive-on in again. This particular event is very much 'water under the bridge' in that there will/will not be enough evidence to prove/disprove.

The more important thing society needs to resolve is the culture where some still think that using sexual assault, or indeed alleging sexual assault, is in any way acceptable.

#metoo is empowering people so that they no longer whisper in the corner how Captain F'Knuckle has always liked a quick fumble in the galley at FL390; they are being given the confidence to shout out immediately, not 10 years downstream. By doing so you start to change the culture, in a small way, such that F'Nuckle may just think twice before embarking on their sworded quest.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 13:09
  #103 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Herod
Would it be possible for the Captain to sue the F.O. for libel, if he believes himself to be innocent? That might bring more evidence to light. Just a thought.
Mostly more evidence about the F/O's motivation to bring about her lawsuit.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 21:04
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Originally Posted by Herod
Would it be possible for the Captain to sue the F.O. for libel, if he believes himself to be innocent? That might bring more evidence to light. Just a thought.
Not for bringing the action itself, court process will be privileged though he can perhaps counterclaim. OTOH if she's appearing on TV etc he might have an opening but I think defamation is a much harder thing to prove in US than UK; constitution and all that.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 21:17
  #105 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Herod
Would it be possible for the Captain to sue the F.O. for libel, if he believes himself to be innocent? That might bring more evidence to light. Just a thought.
Here's a recent case of a bogus rape claim leading to a successful jury verdict for defamation:

Retired colonel wins $8.4M lawsuit against woman who blogged that he raped her

By TOM JACKMAN | The Washington Post | Published: August 11, 2017

Col. David "Wil" Riggins, after a highly-decorated Army career which included multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, was on the verge of promotion to brigadier general in July 2013 when he got a phone call at the Pentagon from the Army Criminal Investigation Command to come in for a meeting. Once there, he learned that a blogger in Washington state had just accused him of raping her, when both were cadets at West Point in 1986. An investigation was underway.

Riggins waived his right to an attorney and immediately gave a statement denying any sexual assault of the woman, Susan Shannon of Everett, Washington. Shannon also cooperated with the CID investigation, which could not "prove or disprove Ms. Shannon's allegation she was raped," the CID report concluded. But in the spring of 2014, with the armed forces facing heavy criticism for their handling of sexual assault cases, Secretary of the Army John McHugh recommended removing Riggins from the list for promotion to general. Riggins promptly retired.

Then, Riggins sued Shannon for defamation, claiming that every aspect of her rape claim on the West Point campus was "provably false," and that she wrote two blog posts and a Facebook post "to intentionally derail [his] promotion" to brigadier general. During a six-day trial that ended Aug. 1, a jury in Fairfax County, Virginia, heard from both Riggins and Shannon at length. And after 2 1/2 hours of deliberation, they sided emphatically with Riggins, awarding him $8.4 million in damages, an extraordinary amount for a defamation case between two private citizens. The jury ordered Shannon to pay $3.4 million in compensatory damages for injury to his reputation and lost wages, and $5 million in punitive damages, "to make sure nothing like this will ever happen again," according to one of the jurors.
https://www.stripes.com/news/us/reti...d-her-1.482514
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 00:16
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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She has asked the civil courts to render a verdict, and on her will rest the burden of convincing a jury of her, and the defendant's, peers that she is telling the truth. Previous experience shows that she faces an uphill job in doing so. But she is surely entitled at least to seek redress by these means.
Point of order, if I may?

Unless I have misread things. She is seeking no determination of whether or not she was raped? Certainly the alleged assailant is said, not to be named as a defendant.

I believe she is suing the company for their actions after her allegation was made?

Whilst simoultaneously, in the ensuing media circus, preventing her alleged assailant from receiving a fair trial. If she ever bothered to press charges.

She wants him fired, as she believes he “remains a threat to other employees”. Conveniently overlooking the fact that because she has not pressed charges, he will remain free, and might then be a threat to every woman on the planet!

Last edited by 4468; 20th Mar 2018 at 00:27.
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 00:30
  #107 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 4468
I believe she is suing the company for their actions after her allegation was made?
Here is a direct quote from the lawsuit saying that she is suing for the actions of the captain and that the company is liable. She does say that the company's actions after the incident could be considered retaliatory.

CAUSES OF ACTION: WASHINGTON LAWS AGAINST DISCRIMINATION
(RCW 49.60), SEXUAL ASSAULT & NEGLIGENCE

14. Mr. Engelienís actions, as the supervising officer on the flight, constitute
violations of Washington Laws Against Discrimination, sexual assault, and negligence.

Given Mr. Engelienís position of authority on the flight and within the company, Alaska Airlines is liable for the violations stated herein. Mr. Engelienís grossly abusive actions epitomize the necessity and purpose of the #metoo movement. Further, the actions on the part of Alaska Airlines after the incident could be construed as unlawfully retaliatory.
https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...-Airlines.html
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 01:04
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Yes, I’ve read that. It’s vicarious liability.

But why isn’t the alleged assailant a co-defendant? Is his guilt being tested in any meaningful way? Is he entitled to representation, if he is not named as a defendant?

Last edited by 4468; 20th Mar 2018 at 01:14.
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 07:19
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But why isnít the alleged assailant a co-defendant?

Pina has hired well known lawyers (search "Lincoln Beauregard") who presumably advised that was not the best route to success.
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 07:58
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This lady is looking for a big settlement out of court from the airline no doubt about that, encouraged of course by lawyers that are going to get a big slice of that. With men and women in the same workplace these allegations are going to happen and the only answer is a no fraternization rule, if you are caught you both get suspended. There will of course be couples who consent and some companies have rules, men are not allowed in women's bedrooms, women entering men's rooms are responsible for what happens and no complaint will be accepted, other than an immediate criminal investigation.
This woman has many years experience working alongside men in the military, she knows how to handle them, let's have none of the poor emotional woman, there has to be evidence to back up what is alleged, if there is none forget it.
One aspect is puzzling, why, when they had an early flight next day did they both go out drinking, as neither was breathalysed I guess there are ways of talking your way out of that.
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 13:23
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She knows how to handle men, perhaps. But it’s a dead certainty she doesn’t know how to handle a roofie.

GF
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 14:39
  #112 (permalink)  

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Here's an interesting tale. I may be the only person here who has (perhaps) been the victim of a date-rape drug.

Scenario. Heterosexual male. An unscheduled night-stop, after a long day, and checked into a hotel used by many of the crews. I went to the bar and had two pints of beer over the space of maybe two hours. One of the other pilots was well known for batting for the other side, quite aggressively. I was invited several times to go to his room, and he would wash my shirt for me (not needed, I always carried a small night-stop kit). I awoke next morning with the worst splitting headache I have ever had. Alone in my room, I hasten to add. I put it down to a long day, too much coffee and too many hours in the foul air of a crewroom. One of the other pilots at breakfast saw the state I was in, and must have called ops, because I was taken off the flight I should have been operating. Perhaps he thought I was badly hungover. I thought nothing of it until several weeks later, when the other pilot's name came up in conversation. I don't know to this day (and I'm sure I made it back to my own room OK), but I do know that two pints of beer wouldn't have had that effect. Scary stuff.
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 18:45
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Originally Posted by aterpster
Help me understand the point you are making about TWA 841.
I think that in expecting him to suddenly become coherent, you are being unrealistically optimistic. Have you visited his website?
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 18:46
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
She knows how to handle men, perhaps. But itís a dead certainty she doesnít know how to handle a roofie.

GF
Any drug is just an allegation, it could have been food poisoning or a whole host of other things that caused illness.
Clearly none of us know what really happened but an airline captain that drugs his copilot a few hours before they are due to fly does not sound likely to me, add to that the fact that any complaint was not made for some time makes me very sceptical.
Police are over sympathetic to any complaint involving women even to the extent of failing to reveal evidence to the defense, there are a string of cases being investigated in the UK at present, so men cannot even rely on the police to investigate impartially.
Of course the guilty ones should be jailed, do it on the evidence or where repeated allegations are proved, not on the story of a woman who wants a big payday.
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 20:04
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I didn’t mention any drug use as fact, just stated it’s unlikely that she, or anyone, could somehow “handle” being drugged.

Here’s the Seattle Times article.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...uring-layover/

GF

Last edited by galaxy flyer; 20th Mar 2018 at 20:18.
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 20:12
  #116 (permalink)  

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I've led a sheltered life. Can someone explain why it's called a "roofie"?
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 20:16
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Originally Posted by Herod
I've led a sheltered life. Can someone explain why it's called a "roofie"?
It's a corruption of Rohypnol, which is one of the trade names the drug is marketed under.
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 20:21
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Rohypnol is a tranquilliser, colloquially known as ‘roofie’. (There are other similar alternatives!)

It is said to be 10x more powerful than Valium. Anyone who has had any contact with Valium for legitimate medical reasons, will know you appear conscious, and care/pain free. But are utterly compliant!

You can both walk and talk. Though I’m told you appear rather ‘out of it’.

There are big blanks in your memory, and significant subsequent confusion: “How could I have been so stupid as to get so drunk.” Etc. The moment of realisation also usually exceeds the period of detection! Pina’s testimony is totally authentic. Make of that what you will! I still say, these things should be tested in court.

Rohypnol etc, renders any potential victim, completely and utterly defenceless!

Last edited by 4468; 20th Mar 2018 at 21:51.
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 21:49
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Originally Posted by aterpster
One on one, I would agree. But, back in the mid-1960s when all the F/As were female and all the pilots were male, we had some grand parties on long layovers. Nothing bad happened. There were the occasional romantic encounters, but by mutual consent.
Assault, and rape, has occurred in every generation. Bad things happened. That it didnít happen at the parties you were at doesnít mean it didnít happen.
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 22:58
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Originally Posted by misd-agin
Assault, and rape, has occurred in every generation. Bad things happened. That it didnít happen at the parties you were at doesnít mean it didnít happen.
As I said, these parties were 4 or 5 F/As and 3 pilots. Not one-on-one at the start.

Yes, I've read about rape going back to Rome and before.
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