Alaska Airlines FO Alleges Rape by Captain on MSP Layover
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The airlines apparently should have a report-of-rape procedure in place to freeze the crew at the layover and get the police to the scene.
Contrary to some sexist statements, female airline pilots aren't going away. I have a close friend who was in training management at a major carrier. He said some of the best pilots are females. I trained two many years ago when I was a GA instructor. Both were well above average.
As far as having babies and all that, most segments of industry seem to deal with that just fine.
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That is true when there is no evidence of injury to the female. But, if there is evidence of battery and a rape kit, conviction is almost certain.
The airlines apparently should have a report-of-rape procedure in place to freeze the crew at the layover and get the police to the scene.
Contrary to some sexist statements, female airline pilots aren't going away. I have a close friend who was in training management at a major carrier. He said some of the best pilots are females. I trained two many years ago when I was a GA instructor. Both were well above average.
As far as having babies and all that, most segments of industry seem to deal with that just fine.
The airlines apparently should have a report-of-rape procedure in place to freeze the crew at the layover and get the police to the scene.
Contrary to some sexist statements, female airline pilots aren't going away. I have a close friend who was in training management at a major carrier. He said some of the best pilots are females. I trained two many years ago when I was a GA instructor. Both were well above average.
As far as having babies and all that, most segments of industry seem to deal with that just fine.
Anyhow in the more progressive countries there's such a thing as paternity leave (in addition to maternity leave), so the baby will "steal" "your" employee regardless of them being female. (And plenty of employers add additional leave on top of the mandatory minimums.) I gather that isn't the case in the country where AS are located though.
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Ask yourself what you would have done.
You're a woman having a drink with a senior male colleague. The next thing you know, you're waking up in a bed full of vomit feeling deeply ill and confused. You're half-undressed, but you might have done that yourself. You don't necessarily know if intercourse took place (condom). You have no idea what happened. But you do have a professional responsibility to fulfill, so you force yourself to shower and dress.
Then you find out that you're not flying - another colleague has reported that you and the pilot were seen drinking and that you looked out of it, and that the pilot has admitted to boozing. You fly back as a passenger, feeling sure that this is a serious issue, and that the company will have to investigate what happened. On the journey, the pilot suggests you get your stories straight. Warning bells start to ring.
It's only now - hours after the black-out - that the bruises start to show. It begins to dawn on you that you were sexually assaulted.
So you tell the company what happened, and what you think was done to you. You're not charging the pilot with rape - perhaps because you think it's now too late to gather physical evidence - but you DO expect the company to take your complaint very seriously. You expect them to investigate whether other female crew have had problems with him. You feel that he should not be allowed to abuse other female colleagues. You feel that the company should protect you.
The company puts you on furlough while they look into it. You agree, thinking that the investigation will take a while to conduct.
Time goes by. You go back to work, expecting that something will have been done. Instead, you find that the pilot is still flying and that the whole event has been buried. You've been conned.
Right, so now what do you do?
Report the rape to the police, six months later? You'd need the support of the company to provide whatever evidence they had at the time, and you're now far from convinced you can trust them. You have reason to think they'd support the pilot over you.
Go to the press? You'd probably get sued by the pilot for defamation.
What's left?
Seems to me this is her best option. What would YOU do?
You're a woman having a drink with a senior male colleague. The next thing you know, you're waking up in a bed full of vomit feeling deeply ill and confused. You're half-undressed, but you might have done that yourself. You don't necessarily know if intercourse took place (condom). You have no idea what happened. But you do have a professional responsibility to fulfill, so you force yourself to shower and dress.
Then you find out that you're not flying - another colleague has reported that you and the pilot were seen drinking and that you looked out of it, and that the pilot has admitted to boozing. You fly back as a passenger, feeling sure that this is a serious issue, and that the company will have to investigate what happened. On the journey, the pilot suggests you get your stories straight. Warning bells start to ring.
It's only now - hours after the black-out - that the bruises start to show. It begins to dawn on you that you were sexually assaulted.
So you tell the company what happened, and what you think was done to you. You're not charging the pilot with rape - perhaps because you think it's now too late to gather physical evidence - but you DO expect the company to take your complaint very seriously. You expect them to investigate whether other female crew have had problems with him. You feel that he should not be allowed to abuse other female colleagues. You feel that the company should protect you.
The company puts you on furlough while they look into it. You agree, thinking that the investigation will take a while to conduct.
Time goes by. You go back to work, expecting that something will have been done. Instead, you find that the pilot is still flying and that the whole event has been buried. You've been conned.
Right, so now what do you do?
Report the rape to the police, six months later? You'd need the support of the company to provide whatever evidence they had at the time, and you're now far from convinced you can trust them. You have reason to think they'd support the pilot over you.
Go to the press? You'd probably get sued by the pilot for defamation.
What's left?
Seems to me this is her best option. What would YOU do?
Maybe someone would like to propose how this alleged incident will be solved? How can there be a final verdict that either party will find comfortable.
IMHO there are no winners here.
IMHO there are no winners here.
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What would I have done?
Allegations of rape can, and should, only be dealt with by the courts. To take any other course of action other than reporting it to the police. Firstly prevents the alleged perpetrator from defending themselves in a court of law. But it also prevents the alleged perpetrator being taken off the streets if they are found guilty!
Look. It’s not rocket science!
Delaying the allegation, merely served to prevent this lady from establishing she had been drugged. However, some may infer conveniently. It also denied the ‘defendant’ from establishing her blood alcohol level.
As far as I can tell, there is no claim that either intercourse, or assault ever took place?
This looks like a very serious allegation with very little supporting evidence.
Absolutely perfect fodder for those of the #MeToo persuasion, who find the principle of “innocent until proven guilty” a little too problematic for their cause. So they prefer other, less stringent, means of ‘prosecuting’ their case!
Allegations of rape can, and should, only be dealt with by the courts. To take any other course of action other than reporting it to the police. Firstly prevents the alleged perpetrator from defending themselves in a court of law. But it also prevents the alleged perpetrator being taken off the streets if they are found guilty!
Look. It’s not rocket science!
Delaying the allegation, merely served to prevent this lady from establishing she had been drugged. However, some may infer conveniently. It also denied the ‘defendant’ from establishing her blood alcohol level.
As far as I can tell, there is no claim that either intercourse, or assault ever took place?
This looks like a very serious allegation with very little supporting evidence.
Absolutely perfect fodder for those of the #MeToo persuasion, who find the principle of “innocent until proven guilty” a little too problematic for their cause. So they prefer other, less stringent, means of ‘prosecuting’ their case!
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Probably not. Unfortunately, some do exist. I've run into the "Videotape, or it didn't happen" types among both sexes.
Oddly enough, this only happens with sexual violence. If I tell people, for example, that my laptop computer was stolen from my car, nobody says:-
* What did you do to provoke the thief?
* If it really was stolen, you ought to be able to show me the police report.
* How do you know the thief didn't genuinely believe you were giving your computer away?
* You're just saying your computer was stolen because you like attention.
* It serves you right for having a computer in the first place.
* You lucky bastard...hell, I wish somebody'd steal my computer.
Etc.
Oddly enough, this only happens with sexual violence. If I tell people, for example, that my laptop computer was stolen from my car, nobody says:-
* What did you do to provoke the thief?
* If it really was stolen, you ought to be able to show me the police report.
* How do you know the thief didn't genuinely believe you were giving your computer away?
* You're just saying your computer was stolen because you like attention.
* It serves you right for having a computer in the first place.
* You lucky bastard...hell, I wish somebody'd steal my computer.
Etc.
Just something to think about...
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Call it a hunch, I guess...
Ask yourself what you would have done.
You're a woman having a drink with a senior male colleague. The next thing you know, you're waking up in a bed full of vomit feeling deeply ill and confused. You're half-undressed, but you might have done that yourself. You don't necessarily know if intercourse took place (condom). You have no idea what happened. But you do have a professional responsibility to fulfill, so you force yourself to shower and dress.
Then you find out that you're not flying - another colleague has reported that you and the pilot were seen drinking and that you looked out of it, and that the pilot has admitted to boozing. You fly back as a passenger, feeling sure that this is a serious issue, and that the company will have to investigate what happened. On the journey, the pilot suggests you get your stories straight. Warning bells start to ring.
It's only now - hours after the black-out - that the bruises start to show. It begins to dawn on you that you were sexually assaulted.
So you tell the company what happened, and what you think was done to you. You're not charging the pilot with rape - perhaps because you think it's now too late to gather physical evidence - but you DO expect the company to take your complaint very seriously. You expect them to investigate whether other female crew have had problems with him. You feel that he should not be allowed to abuse other female colleagues. You feel that the company should protect you.
The company puts you on furlough while they look into it. You agree, thinking that the investigation will take a while to conduct.
Time goes by. You go back to work, expecting that something will have been done. Instead, you find that the pilot is still flying and that the whole event has been buried. You've been conned.
Right, so now what do you do?
Report the rape to the police, six months later? You'd need the support of the company to provide whatever evidence they had at the time, and you're now far from convinced you can trust them. You have reason to think they'd support the pilot over you.
Go to the press? You'd probably get sued by the pilot for defamation.
What's left?
Seems to me this is her best option. What would YOU do
You're a woman having a drink with a senior male colleague. The next thing you know, you're waking up in a bed full of vomit feeling deeply ill and confused. You're half-undressed, but you might have done that yourself. You don't necessarily know if intercourse took place (condom). You have no idea what happened. But you do have a professional responsibility to fulfill, so you force yourself to shower and dress.
Then you find out that you're not flying - another colleague has reported that you and the pilot were seen drinking and that you looked out of it, and that the pilot has admitted to boozing. You fly back as a passenger, feeling sure that this is a serious issue, and that the company will have to investigate what happened. On the journey, the pilot suggests you get your stories straight. Warning bells start to ring.
It's only now - hours after the black-out - that the bruises start to show. It begins to dawn on you that you were sexually assaulted.
So you tell the company what happened, and what you think was done to you. You're not charging the pilot with rape - perhaps because you think it's now too late to gather physical evidence - but you DO expect the company to take your complaint very seriously. You expect them to investigate whether other female crew have had problems with him. You feel that he should not be allowed to abuse other female colleagues. You feel that the company should protect you.
The company puts you on furlough while they look into it. You agree, thinking that the investigation will take a while to conduct.
Time goes by. You go back to work, expecting that something will have been done. Instead, you find that the pilot is still flying and that the whole event has been buried. You've been conned.
Right, so now what do you do?
Report the rape to the police, six months later? You'd need the support of the company to provide whatever evidence they had at the time, and you're now far from convinced you can trust them. You have reason to think they'd support the pilot over you.
Go to the press? You'd probably get sued by the pilot for defamation.
What's left?
Seems to me this is her best option. What would YOU do
Another airline employee reports that you have both been drinking heavily and you are removed from duty and paced home, during the flight you rather awkwardly raise the nights events with your FO and suggest that you should try and figure out what happened so your stories match,,,,,,,, she seems to be acting weirdly. You get a bollocking from you manager and told to go home and to never do that again, you are returned to normal duties, thankgod they didn’t breath test me you think. Two weeks later you are contacted to be told the FO has said that she would never drink to excess like that and has accused you of not only drugging her but also raping her even though she has no memory of the night, this doesn’t seem right, you don’t even know what a date rape drug is and you have never forced anyone to do anything sexual in your life before. The company says that you can keep flying as there is no evidence of wrong doing at this point, you hope it all blows over as how would you explain this to you wife? Months later your world falls apart when you are named in a lawsuit against the airline and it is now nationally reported front page news about this nightstop! You worry that your marriage and career could be over, you are confused and worried..... what should you do?
Last edited by Ollie Onion; 17th Mar 2018 at 19:03. Reason: Spelling
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I realize I'm probably in the minority on this, but it is what it is.
^^^ ai can see what you are saying and somewhat agree but I have been in the situation myself where I have had to wake a Captain up who is on the Bathroom floor of his hotel room drunk after an out of control nightstop where he disappeared from the reastaurant we were at. He had to call in ‘sick’ for our duty and to this day can’t remember what happened or where he went. So it does happen.
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I'm sorry but do adult people really get 'blackout' drunk sufficiently regularly that they have to ask themselves in the morning 'was I drugged or was it just me?'
Quite how much do you have to drink to forget the events? I've put away two bottles of wine on more than one occasion and still remembered clambering laboriously into bed taking care to leave one foot touching the floor to ward off the dreaded 'bed spins'...
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@Ollie
Your point is fair: the point I was making is that the woman's actions are entirely consistent with her perception of the situation. She appears to have behaved perfectly rationally.
The New York Times reported:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/17/t...ilot-rape.html
The male pilot may be a) guilty as charged, b) guilty 'only' of a drunken extramarital shag, or c) entirely innocent. Whichever it is, I believe he has a valid case against Alaska Airlines for not investigating the situation properly and compiling evidence to exonerate him. (Hotel staff, notoriously ephemeral, would still have been around to question. Colleagues would have fresh memories.) They had over six months, after all - plenty of time. Suspicious minds might think they were leaving it as long as possible to let the trail go cold and the female pilot go off to another company. They should have strongly suggested that she report the rape to the police and secure all evidence.
The parties in question are shown here, not that it's relevant: Alaska Airlines pilot accused of rape grounded as shocking details emerge, outcry grows | Fox News. My immediate reaction, I confess, was to feel sceptical that she would 'come onto him pretty hard', although people's tastes are individual and skygods are of course irresistible.
Your point is fair: the point I was making is that the woman's actions are entirely consistent with her perception of the situation. She appears to have behaved perfectly rationally.
The New York Times reported:
She started working for Alaska Airlines in 2016. She said that after years in the military, she was accustomed to reporting problems only to her superiors. That, she said, might explain why she did not report what happened to the police when she returned to the Seattle area.
“I never thought to call the police,” she said. “I was more worried about my job than my own personal safety.”
But over time, she said, “I knew I failed myself.”
“I never thought to call the police,” she said. “I was more worried about my job than my own personal safety.”
But over time, she said, “I knew I failed myself.”
The male pilot may be a) guilty as charged, b) guilty 'only' of a drunken extramarital shag, or c) entirely innocent. Whichever it is, I believe he has a valid case against Alaska Airlines for not investigating the situation properly and compiling evidence to exonerate him. (Hotel staff, notoriously ephemeral, would still have been around to question. Colleagues would have fresh memories.) They had over six months, after all - plenty of time. Suspicious minds might think they were leaving it as long as possible to let the trail go cold and the female pilot go off to another company. They should have strongly suggested that she report the rape to the police and secure all evidence.
The parties in question are shown here, not that it's relevant: Alaska Airlines pilot accused of rape grounded as shocking details emerge, outcry grows | Fox News. My immediate reaction, I confess, was to feel sceptical that she would 'come onto him pretty hard', although people's tastes are individual and skygods are of course irresistible.
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What would I have done? Called the police immediately, because the only way that situation would have come about would have been through poisoning.
I'm sorry but do adult people really get 'blackout' drunk sufficiently regularly that they have to ask themselves in the morning 'was I drugged or was it just me?'
Quite how much do you have to drink to forget the events? I've put away two bottles of wine on more than one occasion and still remembered clambering laboriously into bed taking care to leave one foot touching the floor to ward off the dreaded 'bed spins'...
I'm sorry but do adult people really get 'blackout' drunk sufficiently regularly that they have to ask themselves in the morning 'was I drugged or was it just me?'
Quite how much do you have to drink to forget the events? I've put away two bottles of wine on more than one occasion and still remembered clambering laboriously into bed taking care to leave one foot touching the floor to ward off the dreaded 'bed spins'...
Two bottles of wine don't register on the scale.
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My point was exactly that - do people regularly drink such huge quantities that they would find themselves in that situation in the morning and really think 'wow, must have overdone it again?' Because as you've rightly said, 2 bottles of wine doesn't even come close...
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Yes, that's exactly my point. That's exactly why I would call the police, because the situation would be completely foreign and one I would never anticipate reaching through alcohol alone.
My point was exactly that - do people regularly drink such huge quantities that they would find themselves in that situation in the morning and really think 'wow, must have overdone it again?' Because as you've rightly said, 2 bottles of wine doesn't even come close...
My point was exactly that - do people regularly drink such huge quantities that they would find themselves in that situation in the morning and really think 'wow, must have overdone it again?' Because as you've rightly said, 2 bottles of wine doesn't even come close...
your logical reasoning skills are severly impaired after waking up because the drugs are STILL having an effect.
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AFAIK, date-rape drugs are similar to the drugs administered to endoscopy patients.
The drug induces 'compliance' with instructions - even though the normal (undrugged) reaction would be to fight the (unpleasant) activity, then, after the patient has slept, they awake with all memory of the period erased - there is no possibility of recalling events - none at all.
It isn't 'just a dream', there is just a totally blank period (and no sense of 'missing').
The drug induces 'compliance' with instructions - even though the normal (undrugged) reaction would be to fight the (unpleasant) activity, then, after the patient has slept, they awake with all memory of the period erased - there is no possibility of recalling events - none at all.
It isn't 'just a dream', there is just a totally blank period (and no sense of 'missing').
I have had several 'endoscopy' procedures under the influence of memory drugs that, apparently leave you alert and aware during the operation but then wipe the memory.
For the first one I emerged from the theatre and gave a full verbal account to my wife of what had happened, then, after a brief sleep awoke and denied of all knowledge of the events.
For subsequent operations I was unaccompanied, but I have absolutely no recall of any intrusive activity.
For the first one I emerged from the theatre and gave a full verbal account to my wife of what had happened, then, after a brief sleep awoke and denied of all knowledge of the events.
For subsequent operations I was unaccompanied, but I have absolutely no recall of any intrusive activity.
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anyway the reasons for not going to the police are not that important but it might mean you can't prove rape.
not going to the police on the other does not prove that there was no rape.
not going to the police on the other does not prove that there was no rape.
But in law, if you can’t prove that there was rape. Then the defendant is not guilty of the allegation. They should be free to continue with their lives. It’s really very simple.
If you don’t even bother taking recourse in law, then frankly, any allegation is nothing more than an untested grievance. It would be perfectly reasonable to ask, why have you not taken this to the police?
As I have said. This isn’t rocket science!
Is there anyone that can disagree?
“Law and freedom must be indivisible partners. For without law, there can be no freedom, only chaos and disorder; and without freedom, law is but a cynical veneer for injustice and oppression.”
The law, is fundamental to society as we know it. To seek to subvert it, damages our freedom, and the quality of life itself.
#MeToo and #Time’sUp (etc) seem to wish to bypass the inconvenience of the law?
Do tell me how I’m wrong?
Last edited by 4468; 17th Mar 2018 at 22:33.
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One on one, I would agree. But, back in the mid-1960s when all the F/As were female and all the pilots were male, we had some grand parties on long layovers. Nothing bad happened. There were the occasional romantic encounters, but by mutual consent.
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Another aspect of the endoscope drugs is the calming nature of their effect, conveying that 'all is well', so anyone recovering from an attack is likely to view the situation as 'nothing to be concerned about'.
Mental reaction is not what would be expected without the the drug effect.
Any thought of 'outrage' just would not occur.
Mental reaction is not what would be expected without the the drug effect.
Any thought of 'outrage' just would not occur.