fire on china southern
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: brisbane
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fire on china southern
Did the Cabin Crew forget that they have heaps of fire extinguishers? I know lithium is a problem, but what kind of on board safety procedures are proscribed. Rather QF or CX thank you!
Reminds me of a flying school in Melbourne Australia a long time ago. It had two Piper Warriors. Their Operations Manual displayed this advice: 'If fire occurs in the cockpit do not use the fire extinguisher as it may prove toxic. Use a coat to smother any flames." 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In the Air
Age: 78
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's two this month (February). The other was on an Aeroflot A320 - fortunately, on the ground. We are talking about a sort of 'C' size lithium battery that is re-charged from a laptop and then used to charge a cell-phone. I have two of them and have noted they get quite warm when charging a phone. If these errant devices had been in checked bags and the fire occurred in-flight, we would have had a catastrophic event along the lines of the Aug 19, 1980 Saudi L-10 fire where 301 people perished. I am surprised they are not on the list of banned items taken aboard aircraft.
I once shorted a lithium battery when trying to split a camera battery pack apart.The cell went almost white hot in a few seconds. The power contained is many times that of a zinc carbon battery and needs to be dealt with carefully.
Any specifics about the incident you are referring to and the apparent inadequate response from flight crew ?
On the contrary, that comment would be enough to stop me flying QF, if they have F/As who don't understand that water is in fact the recommended way to attack a Li-ion battery fire.
Extinguishment of Lithium Batteries
Proscribed means forbidden. Did the original poster mean prescribed, I wonder?
Good link, by the way Dave, recommended reading for all! Water rules!
Good link, by the way Dave, recommended reading for all! Water rules!
Trash du Blanc
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: KBHM
Posts: 1,185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At my company we had a laptop fire in a cockpit.... The laptop was in a book bag with a bottle of water... The plastic bottle melted and flooded the bag, extinguishing the fire.....
olddolley,
Out of interest, I looked up the video.
As shown in the FAA link that Dave Reid posted, the crew were doing exactly the right thing. You have to cool down a lithium battery that is on fire. An extinguisher won’t help.
Out of interest, I looked up the video.
As shown in the FAA link that Dave Reid posted, the crew were doing exactly the right thing. You have to cool down a lithium battery that is on fire. An extinguisher won’t help.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: EU
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the contrary, that comment would be enough to stop me flying QF, if they have F/As who don't understand that water is in fact the recommended way to attack a Li-ion battery fire.
Hope the Hosties at QF now more about it then Dave here.
Off course for cooling that battery you need liquids but to extinguish the flames first, best is halon.
So first the halon, then the water!
https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...FO09013SUP.pdf
Maybe what we are seeing is the closest person attacking the fire with the closest available means whilst a second crew member is on their way with an extinguisher?
From the video I've seen one can't ascertain much. No idea of the sequence or timeline of events can be gained.
From the video I've seen one can't ascertain much. No idea of the sequence or timeline of events can be gained.
Li-ion batteries generate their own oxidizer when they burn - halon won't do squat since it works by displacing oxygen (which the burning battery doesn't need to keep burning). Water will cool the battery to the point it no longer produces it's own oxidizer at which time the fire will usually self-extinguish (if not, halon would then be appropriate).
Sounds like the China Southern crew did just fine...
Sounds like the China Southern crew did just fine...
And since you're going to need water anyway to cool the battery, I'm not about to criticise a F/A who uses it to extinguish the flames.
There is a common misconception (not helped by the FUD spread by some extinguisher manufacturers) that Li-ion battery fires are Class D, where you wouldn't want to use water. That's not the case.
The FAA link says that a lithium ion battery that overheats releases burning electrolyte. Halon will put out the electrolyte, as well as any surrounding materials it's ignited. Unless you cool the cell with water, the heat from the short circuit will likely reignite the electrolyte. But halon should at least shrink the flames, and may help make it more obvious where the water needs to go.
Given that Halon was banned by the US Gov't in 1994 I suspect that they wouldn't have one on board. Quote for a fire ext website about Halon.
Is Halon still legal?
Because Halon is a CFC, the production of Halon ceased on January 1, 1994, under the Clean Air Act. There is no cost-effective means of safely and effectively disposing of the Halon that has already been produced, therefore recycling and reusing the existing supply intelligently and responsibly to protect lives and property is the best solution.
The EPA recognizes that that Halon remains the most effective "clean" extinguishing agent available, despite its ozone depleting potential, and there are no federal or state regulations prohibiting the buying, selling or use of Halon extinguishers. All Halon available now is recycled so it is an environmentally responsible choice.
Is Halon still legal?
Because Halon is a CFC, the production of Halon ceased on January 1, 1994, under the Clean Air Act. There is no cost-effective means of safely and effectively disposing of the Halon that has already been produced, therefore recycling and reusing the existing supply intelligently and responsibly to protect lives and property is the best solution.
The EPA recognizes that that Halon remains the most effective "clean" extinguishing agent available, despite its ozone depleting potential, and there are no federal or state regulations prohibiting the buying, selling or use of Halon extinguishers. All Halon available now is recycled so it is an environmentally responsible choice.
Li-ion batteries generate their own oxidizer when they burn - halon won't do squat since it works by displacing oxygen (which the burning battery doesn't need to keep burning). Water will cool the battery to the point it no longer produces it's own oxidizer at which time the fire will usually self-extinguish (if not, halon would then be appropriate).
Sounds like the China Southern crew did just fine...
Sounds like the China Southern crew did just fine...
Per
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: France
Age: 80
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But you will instantly sound like Darth Vader (personal experience in computer room fire system acceptance test that 'misfired' )