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An-148 missing after takeoff from Moscow

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An-148 missing after takeoff from Moscow

Old 21st Feb 2018, 14:37
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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so, there isn't a better way then.

We can move on.
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 14:52
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding the difference between airspeed and ground speed and several suggestions about using GPS, recall that GPS was jammed in the Southern California area including Las Vegas and Los Angeles for several hours each day from January 26th to February 16th. This means that there should be no critical systems on aircraft that depend on GPS.
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 14:54
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MATELO View Post
so, there isn't a better way then.
Laser based speed sensors are in R&D phase, Airbus have done trials. Cost is an issue, so defense applications are likely to be first customers.

Really a discussion for another thread.
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 15:10
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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Better training on recognizing and handling unreliable airspeed events has been a focus the last couple years at my airline, it can be eye opening even when you know something is up.
I will reserve judgement on this accident because I don't know the intricacies of the AN-148 FBW logic when faced with differing airspeeds and alerts. I would hope that full control would be available at the stick?
This is something we will need to know and understand as the next generation of FBW airliners come on line.
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 15:42
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cappt View Post
. I would hope that full control would be available at the stick?
It will although it's sensitiveness will be affected by wrong speed data if pilot don't switch off FBW by double overhead switch (post #195).
Kulverstukas is offline  
Old 21st Feb 2018, 18:30
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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My original admittedly very rude post about the growing number of Russian air accidents now becoming attributed to pilot error in its various forms was actually about CRM.

In this case (and in AF447) it appears that the combined resources of numerous brains end up reaching the same wrong conclusions leading to CFIT on perfectly functioning aircraft.
Why not just ONE that works on a hunch that something is not logical and work on the basis of counter intuition?
Eg. Question what the rest of the crew is doing?

It does appear from the various hints, panic took over and CRM once again "went to pot". It was the same in AF447.

Does it take a flash of genius to do the right thing (which we now take for being genius or hero status) when we get a Sullenberger or Alrosa pilot who can fly a plane which actually has a major failure and not kill everyone?

What is it about Russia that causes this rash of fatal accidents down to various kinds of illusions/spacial disorientation or clear CRM failures.
This is the "human element" which is supposed to save lives, understand when sensors or instruments are faulty and fly a plane not do like the growing list like Kazan, Sochi to name but 2.
Training?
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 19:18
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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By the way, this tragedy has interesting backround that is clearly seen from Russia. CAA of Russia uses this crash and the fact that FO was graduate of non-state-owned flight school to finish off all "bad" pilots( everyone except those who graduated CAA-owned flight schools ). I think constant pressure experienced by first officer who was one of potential victims of this CAA's on-going rampage contributed to human error, if one took place. Just remember Andreas Lubitz who feared to lose his licence. Meanwhile, russian CAA is already working on new massive list of pilot licenses to be revoked.
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 20:04
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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The [email protected] Air Speed Sensing Instrument (LASSI) which is being exhibited at this year’s Farnborough International Airshow sets itself apart from conventional methods as it accurately measures velocity even at low speeds.

Conventionally, air speed is determined using pitot tubes – which protrude from aircraft and sense variations in air pressure with speed. Although usually heated, these tubes are vulnerable to blockage in icy conditions. They could also be damaged by collisions with birds and when the aircraft is on the ground.


https://www.baesystems.com/en/articl...r-for-aircraft
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 20:48
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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It's tough to unthink years of training in 4 minutes........
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 21:09
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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There is one school of thought that says, if anything goes wrong with your flight, you should step down a level of automation, i.e. switch the auto pilot off, and manually fly the plane.
But have we forgotten that there is still one less level of automation... Release the stick, and let the inbuilt dihedral and engineered stability take control.
This usually results in a phugoid oscillation in pitch, which has a definite time period, but eventually reaches some equilibrium.
.
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Old 22nd Feb 2018, 04:13
  #251 (permalink)  
 
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In laymens terms>> "JUST SIT THERE, DON'T JUST DO SOMETHING"
Unless you're in a small handful of situations there's time, time you can use to process, plan, act, evaluate.
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Old 22nd Feb 2018, 05:33
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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inbuilt dihedral and engineered stability take control.

the airplane has anhedral...
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Old 22nd Feb 2018, 05:52
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, it most certainly does.
However, swept back wings create an aerodynamic effect similar to dihedral, so those clever aerodynamicists had to reduce the strong dihedral effect by adding anhedral.
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Old 22nd Feb 2018, 08:17
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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[email protected] based speed sensors are in R&D phase
LDA, [email protected] Doppler Anenometry, is used in wind tunnels for at least 25 years now. It works perfectly.
The only issue: now you do not have only one hole to clog, but (simply stating) two [email protected] and one camera to be covered by ice... So the risk of failure is trippled.
You may operate it through the cockpit window just like some optical devices on modern cars, so icing/contamination of the windscreen is evident to the pilot and can be counteracted by the wipeers or the window anti-ice. But pitot heat off should be evident to the pilot as well....
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Old 22nd Feb 2018, 13:08
  #255 (permalink)  
 
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This is report of incident of same type (Angara An-148 RA-61710 27/05/2015) take-off with Pitot covers not removed. In russian.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AlxnCD1GL6iNhMYWfv2EdSjObcM-fw
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Old 22nd Feb 2018, 17:45
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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If the [email protected] systems being considered are using the "color" to measure doppler effect, then the [email protected] and detector do not need to face forward. That could help with de-icing problems.

The technique is doing well on my oxygen/pulse meter that provides oxygen saturation using the color of my blood.
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Old 22nd Feb 2018, 18:56
  #257 (permalink)  

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"Laser based speed sensors are in R&D phase, Airbus have done trials. Cost is an issue, so defense applications are likely to be first customers."

I was measuring the velocity of red blood cells in the skin with a [email protected] doppler flowmeter 30 years ago, so it is hardly a new technology.

'Scuse me for buttin' in…


[The [email protected] has to face "forwards", but high powered modern solid-state [email protected] are cheap as chips now. You could probably buy a dozen for the price of an electrically heated pitot-tube]
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Old 22nd Feb 2018, 21:26
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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Okay all 3 AIS went downhill.

What does this mean to the autoflight system on AN-148?
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 02:11
  #259 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Kulverstukas View Post
This is report of incident of same type (Angara An-148 RA-61710 27/05/2015) take-off with Pitot covers not removed. In russian.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AlxnCD1GL6iNhMYWfv2EdSjObcM-fw
Apparently (page 9, bottom), total loss of airspeed indication is not a thing in An-148 flight manual.
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 08:25
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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Rosaviation letter on accident. In russian. On page 2 it mentions takeoff with MEL and refers to Angara incident as well as Tu-204 RA-64017 incident (23.03.2001) in Vnukovo - takeoff with AoA malfunction.
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