FO removed from BA Flight
Controversial, moi?
Interestingly, perhaps thought should be given to introducing carefully designed, short simulator sessions that could reveal functional and mental shortcomings immediately before every flight. They need not be longer than 10 minutes or so, and if failed, require either a follow up blood test or a programme of retraining.
What I find quite extraordinary in this thread is the draconian proposals to address a virtually non-existent problem, certainly as far as crews based in Europe and the USA are concerned. I cannot speak for other areas.
Much like the proposals to reduce the blood/alcohol limit for drivers in the UK will not actually stop or reduce the number of people prosecuted any changes to the existing regime will have little or no effect. It will just make life a little less tolerable for those who behave responsibly, those with an alcohol problem will continue whatever the limits whether it be driving or any other walk of life.
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Every time I touch my throttle, I make sure I am 100% sober in terms of alcohol and medication. And I do my darned best to make sure I've had more than enough sleep. Of course, I've been tired on some occasions, but the adrenaline (yes, I still feel that) of advancing the throttles still makes up for it.
It's not just the lives of those in the back, but also of those on the ground.
Pushing back to the idea of using a breathalyzer before every flight is, while understandable from an individual's position, indicative of a failure to see the bigger picture.
I like to compare this with the concept of eminent domain. Eminent domain is a legal practice where a government can "seize" private property for the public good. In that case, there are compelling reasons to infringe on the individual right to ownership in the name of the public good. Using a breathalyzer prior to operating an aircraft, whether you're a PPL student or an A380 driver, should in my humble opinion be considered as part of IM SAFE, if you remember that. Hint: it's the A.
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A number of very interesting responses to my post.
A couple of points. I choose to not fly with certain airlines for many reasons including, safety record, comfort and service, my possibly perceived expectation of a certain level of competency of the crew, price and other criteria. Incidents of blood alcohol content issues are certainly noted, as are throwing passengers with children of a flight when they have allocated seats, and similar provocative issues.
As with most of us with a little knowledge, we absolutely refuse to fly with certain carriers who do not meet the standards we expect. I am sure that the people who frequent these forums know exactly which airlines fall into that category. After all, passengers are clients and they are placing their trust in the crew, the drink/flying criteria applicable to them should not be expected to be the same as the crew. (However I also applaud the work being done by some UK airlines to clamp down on idiotic donkeys who frighten and endanger everyone.
If, as has been suggested that some pilots can only perform their function efficiently after consuming alcohol, then I would expect them to find another career which does not involve carrying passengers at 475 kts and 37,000'. This is not barnstorming in the 30's.
Finally, I should have clarified my comment regarding simulator testing. I was thinking more along the lines of a simple test with hand/eye coordination, interspersed mental arithmetic (Speed, height, distance) and perhaps FMC reprogramming. Definitely not full procedural, full motion, etc.
A couple of points. I choose to not fly with certain airlines for many reasons including, safety record, comfort and service, my possibly perceived expectation of a certain level of competency of the crew, price and other criteria. Incidents of blood alcohol content issues are certainly noted, as are throwing passengers with children of a flight when they have allocated seats, and similar provocative issues.
As with most of us with a little knowledge, we absolutely refuse to fly with certain carriers who do not meet the standards we expect. I am sure that the people who frequent these forums know exactly which airlines fall into that category. After all, passengers are clients and they are placing their trust in the crew, the drink/flying criteria applicable to them should not be expected to be the same as the crew. (However I also applaud the work being done by some UK airlines to clamp down on idiotic donkeys who frighten and endanger everyone.
If, as has been suggested that some pilots can only perform their function efficiently after consuming alcohol, then I would expect them to find another career which does not involve carrying passengers at 475 kts and 37,000'. This is not barnstorming in the 30's.
Finally, I should have clarified my comment regarding simulator testing. I was thinking more along the lines of a simple test with hand/eye coordination, interspersed mental arithmetic (Speed, height, distance) and perhaps FMC reprogramming. Definitely not full procedural, full motion, etc.
Last edited by ImageGear; 26th Jan 2018 at 20:17.
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I am surprised you ever get on an aircraft as you seem to have little respect or trust in the ability of Professional Pilots to be 'professional' and do their jobs.
Perhaps Car drivers should undergo similar tests before they are allowed to drive as thousand of people are dieing on the roads every day where as no passengers were killed on commercial jet aircraft last year.
There is not a problem with 'drunk pilots' in the Western world.
Perhaps Car drivers should undergo similar tests before they are allowed to drive as thousand of people are dieing on the roads every day where as no passengers were killed on commercial jet aircraft last year.
There is not a problem with 'drunk pilots' in the Western world.
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IMAGEGEAR
Let me see if I understand this correctly, do you mean that before every flight we should do this?
How will we do it on a 4 sector day, should we do it between each sector too?
I mean would be interesting to see the effects of fatigue / tiredness, which is a bigger issue than alcohol is in aviation.
I mean you might get top score before your first flight in the morning, but you might fail before your 4.th sector due to fatigue.
I am not sure if I should cough or laugh?
Let me see if I understand this correctly, do you mean that before every flight we should do this?
How will we do it on a 4 sector day, should we do it between each sector too?
I mean would be interesting to see the effects of fatigue / tiredness, which is a bigger issue than alcohol is in aviation.
I mean you might get top score before your first flight in the morning, but you might fail before your 4.th sector due to fatigue.
I am not sure if I should cough or laugh?
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A good use of resources ?
Being that the level of achohol abuse by flight crew is very low I have to ask if a breath test prior to flight is a worthwhile safety measure or could the money be better spent to improve flight safety in other ways ?
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...and that nicely rounds out the case in that I as both a pilot and a fare paying passenger don't really care whether my pilot flying, is drunk, fatigued, on medication, or on drugs. (Don't mention suicidal)
The test will probably catch it and is not dependent on blood content, time, temperature, amount of sleep or anything else. It only serves to confirm that a level of competency has been achieved in core skills prior to operation.
Whether the tests are 2 minutes, 10 minutes, before first sector, before last sector, short haul, long haul, daily, random or whatever. I think it would be a significant improvement to current procedures.
...and that nicely rounds out the case in that I as both a pilot and a fare paying passenger don't really care whether my pilot flying, is drunk, fatigued, on medication, or on drugs. (Don't mention suicidal)
The test will probably catch it and is not dependent on blood content, time, temperature, amount of sleep or anything else. It only serves to confirm that a level of competency has been achieved in core skills prior to operation.
Whether the tests are 2 minutes, 10 minutes, before first sector, before last sector, short haul, long haul, daily, random or whatever. I think it would be a significant improvement to current procedures.
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This is a useful article. Apologies if it has already been posted. It addresses many of the issues raised here including some EU countries having to relax their zero tolerance laws to accommodate pilots from other EU countries with less strict requirements.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-alcohol-limit
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-alcohol-limit
Not commenting one way or the other, but one November afternoon, about 10 years ago, I was in LYS waiting for a delayed flight to LHR.
Delay of a couple of hours, so I thought I'd have a stroll around the terminal to kill time and, being November and Beaujolais Nouveau week and all that that means in that part of the world, I'd go and have a glass or two in the temporary bar erected landside in Terminal 1 for a week or so specifically for sampling that year's crop.
I'd just got started on the second glass when I was suddenly pushed in the back and spilled quite a bit on the floor. Turning around to see who / what was the cause, I suddenly was face-to-face with two glass holding, smiling and very apologetic gents wearing IB uniforms and ID tags - one with four stripes and the other with three stripes on their shoulders.
Of course, they might have just dismbarked and were on their way to a HOTAC somewhere, but if they were they'd obviously forgotten about and left their overcoats and baggage on their just arrived aircraft...
Whether the tests are 2 minutes, 10 minutes, before first sector, before last sector, short haul, long haul, daily, random or whatever. I think it would be a significant improvement to current procedures.
Stick any such test on the start of a flying duty period and it becomes part of that duty period, and could make many ultra long haul sectors or a short haul multi sector days unworkable. By way of an illustration in BA’s case there’s no spare room in the BA T5 area...so if your idea was adopted a pilot would probably have to report to the Hatton Cross training complex (at which point the law demands the duty clock starts running) , do the 2 min/10 min test or whatever it is you are suggesting, then get in his or her car, drive to the crew car park (or take a bus) and head for crew report at T5, possibly via the crew car park ....you’d be adding an hour at the very least onto the front end of duty days and rendering many short haul days rosters and Long Haul sectors unworkable.......it is simply not going to happen.
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Would the “proposed” Pre Flight tests also be hindered by fatigue!
If every crew member needs to be alcohol/drug tested prior to each flight then ground every Flight! To me that indicates a huge failing in the system! If we are all such a risk to safety we can’t report fit weather through drink, drugs, over counter medicine, or fatigue then ground every aircraft to be sure! Complete lunacy!
I presume nobody has an issue with legally flying 13 hours without a break, or access to food and drink and then drive up to one and a half hours home? Oh yea of course that’s cool and legal!!! What a rediculous and unsafe regulatory body we are managed under!
If every crew member needs to be alcohol/drug tested prior to each flight then ground every Flight! To me that indicates a huge failing in the system! If we are all such a risk to safety we can’t report fit weather through drink, drugs, over counter medicine, or fatigue then ground every aircraft to be sure! Complete lunacy!
I presume nobody has an issue with legally flying 13 hours without a break, or access to food and drink and then drive up to one and a half hours home? Oh yea of course that’s cool and legal!!! What a rediculous and unsafe regulatory body we are managed under!
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After the pre-flight SIM can we reasonably expect to see a small annex alongside every hospital operating theatre where a surgeon will, under the watchful eye of a professor of surgery, carry out a short procedure to prove his/her fitness?
Then, after that, we have the railways, the merchant marine, bus depots and so it goes. How about a mini court room off to the side of the main courts where barristers can answer some questions on law and respond to a few choice quotes from an 'accused' or their witness?
Then, after that, we have the railways, the merchant marine, bus depots and so it goes. How about a mini court room off to the side of the main courts where barristers can answer some questions on law and respond to a few choice quotes from an 'accused' or their witness?
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Oh hang on! Just found out why pilots can’t have half a pint a month before duty!!!
https://bangshift.com/bangshiftxl/ma...ws-story-ever/
https://bangshift.com/bangshiftxl/ma...ws-story-ever/
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Unlike some of my "colleagues"
I can't be bothered trying to reply reasonably, as I see others have, but to no avail.
ImageGear
Please stop posting. Your comments and suggestions are some of the stupidest I've ever heard.
(Wont help, I know, but I feel better now)
ImageGear
Please stop posting. Your comments and suggestions are some of the stupidest I've ever heard.
(Wont help, I know, but I feel better now)
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Personally, I would prefer to see an outright ban on the consumption of any alcohol or medication except for very minor ailments, not less than 48 hours before flight.
Interestingly, perhaps thought should be given to introducing carefully designed, short simulator sessions that could reveal functional and mental shortcomings immediately before every flight. They need not be longer than 10 minutes or so, and if failed, require either a follow up blood test or a programme of retraining. I am aware that this could introduce some serious delay if actioned but the alternative of letting someone loose while incapacitated is unthinkable.
There would, as always, be a cost to be carried, but the airlines could well benefit from an increased level of passenger confidence.
Interestingly, perhaps thought should be given to introducing carefully designed, short simulator sessions that could reveal functional and mental shortcomings immediately before every flight. They need not be longer than 10 minutes or so, and if failed, require either a follow up blood test or a programme of retraining. I am aware that this could introduce some serious delay if actioned but the alternative of letting someone loose while incapacitated is unthinkable.
There would, as always, be a cost to be carried, but the airlines could well benefit from an increased level of passenger confidence.
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As a member of SLF, paying up to £100 for an airline ticket, I am fully entitled to expect and demand 100% concentration from pilots at the peak of their abilities.
Pre-flight simulator checks are a start, as are mandatory alcohol and drug tests, and I suggest a short interview with a specially trained mental health professional before every flight. However, this does not address the issue of pilots making lifestyle choices which may have a negative effect on their abilities; and therefore my safety - I think you’ll agree this is utterly unacceptable.
I suggest that pilots should be forced to wear an activity tracker and body camera for at least the preceding 48 hours before every flight. Also every stool should be sampled for evidence of unhealthy or unbalanced diet.
Personal relationships must be subject to external examination and approval, and any sexual activity carefully monitored.
Then, and only then, would I be confidently prepared to put my safety in their hands.
I realise there is a cost implication to all this, but I am sure most pilots would be happy to pay for this themselves, representing as it does a small price to pay for the benefit of having people like myself as their passengers.
Pre-flight simulator checks are a start, as are mandatory alcohol and drug tests, and I suggest a short interview with a specially trained mental health professional before every flight. However, this does not address the issue of pilots making lifestyle choices which may have a negative effect on their abilities; and therefore my safety - I think you’ll agree this is utterly unacceptable.
I suggest that pilots should be forced to wear an activity tracker and body camera for at least the preceding 48 hours before every flight. Also every stool should be sampled for evidence of unhealthy or unbalanced diet.
Personal relationships must be subject to external examination and approval, and any sexual activity carefully monitored.
Then, and only then, would I be confidently prepared to put my safety in their hands.
I realise there is a cost implication to all this, but I am sure most pilots would be happy to pay for this themselves, representing as it does a small price to pay for the benefit of having people like myself as their passengers.
