FO removed from BA Flight
I apologize if someone's said this before, but it seems to me that a critical question is how high his alcohol levels were (if they existed at all). As I understand it, the cutoff is low enough that a pilot might follow all the applicable rules of thumb, not feel impaired, and still be over the limit. (For example if he metabolizes alcohol unusually slowly, or was served drinks stronger than he thought they were.) And the cutoff is, after all, arbitrary. If 19 mg/ml is deemed safe, 21 mg/ml can hardly be certain death for all on the aircraft.
Of course, a pilot could avoid any risk by not drinking at all for a long period before the flight, but drinking isn't prohibited. I'd hope a pilot wouldn't be crucified for doing something he reasonably believed would keep him on the right side of the law, and created little or no actual risk.
Of course, a significantly higher level is likely to indicate a serious alcohol problem, extreme recklessness, or both.
Of course, a pilot could avoid any risk by not drinking at all for a long period before the flight, but drinking isn't prohibited. I'd hope a pilot wouldn't be crucified for doing something he reasonably believed would keep him on the right side of the law, and created little or no actual risk.
Of course, a significantly higher level is likely to indicate a serious alcohol problem, extreme recklessness, or both.
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Parabellum - the Mags will accept a guilty plea and decide whether their powers are sufficient to sentence. If not it'll be committed to crown court for sentencing only. If it's a not guilty plea, it may be deemed not suitable for summary trial and sent to crown.
Basil - not sure if the below is relevant to your earlier point:
Activities Ancillary to Aviation Functions
94(3) For the purposes of sections 92 to 102 of this Act, a reference to an activity which is ancillary to an aviation function is a reference to anything which falls to be treated as such by virtue of subsections (4) to (6) below.
94(4) An activity shall be treated as ancillary to an aviation function if it is undertaken-
94(6) Where a person sets out to perform an aviation function, anything which he does by way of preparing to perform the function shall be treated as an activity ancillary to it.
94(7) For the purposes of this sections it is immaterial whether a person performs a function or carries out an activity in the course of an employment or trade or otherwise.
94(5) and 94(6) cover pre-flight stuff etc I believe - sorry if this was totally irrelevant as I've simply skimmed over the replies.
Basil - not sure if the below is relevant to your earlier point:
Activities Ancillary to Aviation Functions
94(3) For the purposes of sections 92 to 102 of this Act, a reference to an activity which is ancillary to an aviation function is a reference to anything which falls to be treated as such by virtue of subsections (4) to (6) below.
94(4) An activity shall be treated as ancillary to an aviation function if it is undertaken-
(a) by a person who has reported for a period of duty in respect of the function, and
(b) as a requirement of, for the purpose of or in connection with the performance of the function during that period of duty.
94(5) A person who in accordance with the terms of an employment or undertaking holds himself ready to perform an aviation function if called upon shall be treated as carrying out an activity ancillary to the function.(b) as a requirement of, for the purpose of or in connection with the performance of the function during that period of duty.
94(6) Where a person sets out to perform an aviation function, anything which he does by way of preparing to perform the function shall be treated as an activity ancillary to it.
94(7) For the purposes of this sections it is immaterial whether a person performs a function or carries out an activity in the course of an employment or trade or otherwise.
94(5) and 94(6) cover pre-flight stuff etc I believe - sorry if this was totally irrelevant as I've simply skimmed over the replies.
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yellowtriumph
Having spent forty years as a professional pilot, I can assure you, these days, the performance of your pilot is infinitely more likely to be adversely affected by fatigue, than alcohol. Particularly at the intoxication levels specified by the law!
The effects of fatigue are serious. They were vastly underestimated/ignored when politicians (between boozy lunches!) brought in the much less restrictive EASA flight time limitations. Totally ignoring the science in the process!
I can't be breathalysed for fatigue, and it's problematic to self diagnose! Not least because companies don't want to be forced to employ more 'expensive' pilots, and many customers buy their tickets on the basis of only one criteria. Price.
But don't let a mere professional get in the way of your condescending grandstanding! Just continue as you are in blissful ignorance, while great professionals keep your soft squidgy bag of flesh and organs in one piece!
If you want to know who might REALLY be compromising your safety, you need to look way beyond pilots!
Having spent forty years as a professional pilot, I can assure you, these days, the performance of your pilot is infinitely more likely to be adversely affected by fatigue, than alcohol. Particularly at the intoxication levels specified by the law!
The effects of fatigue are serious. They were vastly underestimated/ignored when politicians (between boozy lunches!) brought in the much less restrictive EASA flight time limitations. Totally ignoring the science in the process!
I can't be breathalysed for fatigue, and it's problematic to self diagnose! Not least because companies don't want to be forced to employ more 'expensive' pilots, and many customers buy their tickets on the basis of only one criteria. Price.
But don't let a mere professional get in the way of your condescending grandstanding! Just continue as you are in blissful ignorance, while great professionals keep your soft squidgy bag of flesh and organs in one piece!
If you want to know who might REALLY be compromising your safety, you need to look way beyond pilots!
My perspective is that of Joe Public, one you appear not to understand. Your mere 40 years as a professional pilot (and you accuse me of condescending grandstanding) appears to have blinded you to the simplistic view the public have of your job. From our perspective your job is complicated, you require extensive initial training and subsequent on-going training. That, together with your subsequent experience, means that we - the general public - believe you and your colleagues will get us safely from a to b.
For that we expect you to be well remunerated in your job, we pay for that, and in return we expect, we require, we demand that you take no deliberate action to reduce your ability to perform your role to the best of your ability and that includes not breaking whatever the legal safety limits are with regard to alcohol consumption during your careers.
If you choose to break those limits, note the word ‘choose’, then as far as I’m concerned you’re out. And I’m quite sure Joe public would agree.
I’m quite sure the other points you raise are pertinent and justifiable to the overall safety of the commercial aviation industry, but they are not pertinent to this thread.
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....even cheaper is don’t drink before a duty. If you require/need alcohol the night before an early report something is wrong - perhaps with your personal life or your discipline/attitude. Buying a (probably) questionably accurate breathalyser to check you’re “ok” should be setting off alarm bells. Bit of personal reflection may be?
We have a highly responsible job, remunerated accordingly. Is it worth risking that (and potentially the aircraft and its contents) for a drink? The rules are clear and known before we signed up - it comes with the territory.
As alluded to in an earlier post perhaps the greater threat in the future will be drugs not alcohol.
We have a highly responsible job, remunerated accordingly. Is it worth risking that (and potentially the aircraft and its contents) for a drink? The rules are clear and known before we signed up - it comes with the territory.
As alluded to in an earlier post perhaps the greater threat in the future will be drugs not alcohol.
Yellowtriumph, if you want you pilots at the top of their game then you need to write to the authorities about the EASA FTL limits as this is far more likely to be the biggest factor in pilot performance than a few beers the night before. But that would cost 90p a ticket to resolve so it won’t happen any time soon.
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I’m sure like most members of the general public I have no idea what you’re talking about. EASA FTL - hocus pocus to me. I have no doubt though that as an industry whatever it is is of great importance to you and your colleagues as no doubt it concerns the safety and operation of commercial aircraft. I absolutely respect that, I genuinely, absolutely respect all pilots, yours is not an easy job. I have no doubts that all you pilots want to work in as safe a working environment as you can for everyone’s benefit, who could possibly argue with that.
But, like most members of the general public I do know about alcohol consumption. I’m frankly astonished that you might feel it’s ok to have a few bevvies the night before taking control of a passenger aircraft. I really am. You yourself felt that no-one knows how quickly the body deals with it yet I can’t believe you think it’s ok to gamble with the results.
But, like most members of the general public I do know about alcohol consumption. I’m frankly astonished that you might feel it’s ok to have a few bevvies the night before taking control of a passenger aircraft. I really am. You yourself felt that no-one knows how quickly the body deals with it yet I can’t believe you think it’s ok to gamble with the results.
I’m sure like most members of the general public I have no idea what you’re talking about. EASA FTL - hocus pocus to me.............
.I’m frankly astonished that you might feel it’s ok to have a few bevvies the night before taking control of a passenger aircraft. I really am..
.I’m frankly astonished that you might feel it’s ok to have a few bevvies the night before taking control of a passenger aircraft. I really am..
1. A pilot having one small beer in an evening more than 8 hours before a morning report or two glasses of wine or two beers with dinner the day before an evening report 24 hours hence.
Or:
2. A sequence of short haul 12 hour multi sector duty days, or operating the back end a long haul two pilot sector, having not slept for perhaps 24 hours?
For the avoidance of any doubts I don’t think any of the professional crew posting here are condoning pushing the legal and company limits on alcohol, but they do get frustrated when some people’s supposed concern for safety appears so one track/single issue. I’d actually be fine with having to “blow” at every report...as long as the authorities/airlines also have you doing a fatigue test of some sort at the same time....which will never happen.
(Edit to add: I’d like to enter this post as evidence. Some may have realised it has taken me at least 5 or 6 goes to get it right. I’ve not touched a drop of booze in several days, but have just got back from a longhaul rotation, had naff all sleep in 24 hours, and it’s now 3 AM local and I’m ***** awake. I should have gone to the pub earlier....)
Last edited by wiggy; 24th Jan 2018 at 00:54.
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"Like most members of the general public I have no idea what you're talking about..." Which begs the question, yellow triumph, why then are you delivering pompous lectures on a professional pilots forum? Nobody here has remotely suggested it's ok to have "a few bevies before a flight". But if you actually have an interest in air safety, perhaps you'd at least consider the very major safety hazard posed by fatigue. And ask why this risk is routinely tolerated when a much smaller risk from alcohol gets so many on a hysterical high-horse
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Further to JW411's post 130, once the new rules came into force, I was advised by my AME that the very low level permitted meant alcohol could be detected over 24 hours after consumption. I changed my habits to not having any alcohol at all on the day before a flight, meaning a drink only on day one of a two-day break. That gave a minimum of some thirty hours. Restricted the social life, but kept me legal. Now I'm teetotal (but no longer flying!)
4468, Good post
Yellowtriumph, google comparison charts for hours awake v alcohol equivalence. Going crew fatigue and taking yourself off a flight does happen. However with operators scheduling Max duty days followed by Minimum rests I would be fascinated to know if you can go to sleep on demand and stay asleep for required time. Go crew fatigue too often and you lose your job.
Yellowtriumph, google comparison charts for hours awake v alcohol equivalence. Going crew fatigue and taking yourself off a flight does happen. However with operators scheduling Max duty days followed by Minimum rests I would be fascinated to know if you can go to sleep on demand and stay asleep for required time. Go crew fatigue too often and you lose your job.
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If you re-read what I posted you will see I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt. I said ' .. you might feel it's ok etc .. 'I meant 'might' as in the possibility rather than 'might' as in fact - there is a misunderstanding between us which I have introduced, perhaps a better choice of word from me would not have led to that, and for that I apologise with no reservation. As I said, I respect all pilots and have no doubt you all set out to perform your duties to the highest standards.
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Fatigue....insidious and difficult to detect, booze the easy answer to pilot bashing
For those pilots who are yet to have a fatigue issue I can tell you that you are in for a surprise, in that you will be the last to know that you have become a victim of the appalling and dangerous EASA flight time limitations rules.
The current EASA regulations are simply not safe in the long run and are now the largest risk to the traveling public despite the headlines in the papers that go for the very occasional drunk pilot issue as if it was an everyday happening.
In forty years in the business I have only seen one of my crew mates turn up drunk ( and he only got as far as the hotel lobby ) but discovered myself flying multiple flights under fatigue but failed to recognise the symptoms in myself.
I was fortunate enough to be in a financal position to take an 80% Roster to combat the effects of fatigue and feel much better for it but with the huge debts that young pilots have to pay off to get into the industry some of these people simply can’t afford to take the option of working less and become unwilling victims of fatigue.
It is so easy for those who write for the papers to headline drunk pilots because the tests can say conclusively if they are guilty and it makes a good cheap story, far harder to sell a newspaper report about fatigue as it is about as hard to pin down as it is to nail a jelly ( jello for the Americans ) to a wall, and yet fatigue is the biggest danger in the industry at the moment.
The current EASA regulations are simply not safe in the long run and are now the largest risk to the traveling public despite the headlines in the papers that go for the very occasional drunk pilot issue as if it was an everyday happening.
In forty years in the business I have only seen one of my crew mates turn up drunk ( and he only got as far as the hotel lobby ) but discovered myself flying multiple flights under fatigue but failed to recognise the symptoms in myself.
I was fortunate enough to be in a financal position to take an 80% Roster to combat the effects of fatigue and feel much better for it but with the huge debts that young pilots have to pay off to get into the industry some of these people simply can’t afford to take the option of working less and become unwilling victims of fatigue.
It is so easy for those who write for the papers to headline drunk pilots because the tests can say conclusively if they are guilty and it makes a good cheap story, far harder to sell a newspaper report about fatigue as it is about as hard to pin down as it is to nail a jelly ( jello for the Americans ) to a wall, and yet fatigue is the biggest danger in the industry at the moment.
The point I'm labouring is that aircrew fatigue is not something an individual can control,
alcohol consumption is - very much so. And that is what this thread is about, not fatigue. I await the flak, but there you go
Now...back to the alcohol..
Last edited by wiggy; 24th Jan 2018 at 09:49.
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Happy to leave this supposedly professional pilots forum, to anyone who wants to contribute.
Seemingly, mostly people with lots to say, and nothing to learn. Yet are attracted to pilot's websites.
Over to you.
Seemingly, mostly people with lots to say, and nothing to learn. Yet are attracted to pilot's websites.
Over to you.
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I can tell you though that I was not/am not a reporter for any publication! I do read the DM (for some of the puzzles in the centre section), but then again I read more than one publication.
My work did involve nearly 35 years of irregular late/early shift work with no real pattern to it. It would be be very appropriate to say the pattern often led to fatigue on my part and some of the colleagues I worked with. As I lived 50 miles from my place of work and often worked outside of normal public transport hours I routinely had to drive to work and back.
I posted in another thread that one day driving home from work I was convinced I was barely a few miles from a lay-by where I could pull over, as I often did, and have a nap as I was feeling tired.
In reality I was asleep at the wheel.
Somewhere deep, deep down in my thoughts I realised what as happening and somewhat incredulously I 'came to' to find the car heading for the central barrier of the A3. I regained control, drove on for those few miles and pulled over. I sat there and cried and cried over what had nearly happened. The next day I went and saw my boss, and said I simply couldn't go on. He was a decent man, very sympathetic and there and then told me that from that day on if I was feeling tired I should simply go home whilst I was fit to do so.
It was only when I retired that I realised what damage all those years of irregular shift work did to me. Retirement very quickly brought on a new sense of mental well being and alertness (no stress), a sense of physical well being (no 16 hours days including travelling). I am refreshed.
Some here think that I am trying to make an issue about alcohol alone, that somehow I should be concentrating more on fatigue. Judging what you aviation professionals are posting it seems fatigue is more of an issue. But that was not what this thread was about and that is why I, for one, am not posting about it, well until now if you see what I mean. I was lucky, I had a decent boss who had actually done my job by my side for years before. I well understand that your industry is different, it is world wide, cosy personal arrangements don't work and could not possibly work. What is the solution to your fatigue issues? I don't know.
My posts are well intentioned, perhaps though they aren't hitting the right mark and fellow posters are taking them in the wrong spirit. Thats the danger of www I guess.
Edit to add: Just seen 4468's post. What doing you want me to reply? I come to Prune precisely to be informed, educated and often entertained a bit like the BBC I suppose. The forum appears to me to be largely resident to a large number of intelligent and 'life aware' souls. I am often enriched by what I read and I hope in return I can return some of that on occasion. The fact that it is a pilots website is not really pertinent, it is the kind of people who occupy it that is the point, it could be any site. Although of course I obviously accept that most of the sub-forums are absolutely related to aviation content where I tend not to go.
Last edited by yellowtriumph; 24th Jan 2018 at 09:11.
Yes, I think it's almost inevitable (and not necessarily a bad thing) that a thread about one sort of pilot impairment (alcohol) will drift into whataboutery re another form of impairment (fatigue) which is arguably much more pervasive.
I think yellowtriumph was just trying to stay on point, keeping the discussion related to alcohol consumption. The thread was always going to drift towards fatigue eventually, to try and put it into perspective.
Alcohol consumption is something that can be controlled by the pilot at any time (unless they have a problem) and if so, is a silly thing to get caught out by. Fatigue I imagine is to do with factors higher up the chain, relating to duty times and so on, things that are slightly out of a pilot's control.
It may be all well and good not reporting for work due to fatigue as someone suggested, but I'd imagine it's the fear of regularly doing so and the repercussions on their career at their airline that prevents them from doing so?
I'd be interested to know, how many professional pilots here have called the office and told them they are unfit to fly after self-diagnosing themselves as being fatigued? And have you had to do it regularly?
Alcohol consumption is something that can be controlled by the pilot at any time (unless they have a problem) and if so, is a silly thing to get caught out by. Fatigue I imagine is to do with factors higher up the chain, relating to duty times and so on, things that are slightly out of a pilot's control.
It may be all well and good not reporting for work due to fatigue as someone suggested, but I'd imagine it's the fear of regularly doing so and the repercussions on their career at their airline that prevents them from doing so?
I'd be interested to know, how many professional pilots here have called the office and told them they are unfit to fly after self-diagnosing themselves as being fatigued? And have you had to do it regularly?
The point of the Fatigue dangers is that they can be directly related to the Alcohol dangers. As has been shown there are obvious ways that alcohol use will show, unlike fatigue. The fuss that has been made about this incident and the total lack of concern about fatigue is a sad inditement of peoples priorities.
