FO removed from BA Flight
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I simply can't believe this thread.
How many pilots under the influence of alcohol have been the cause of airline disasters?
I'm not condoning turning up to work under the influence, but most of the responses in this thread are trying to paint a picture that simply doesn't exist.
The 3 major contributors to airline disasters are:
1. Financial pressure on the Company causing corner-cutting in standards, maintenance etc
2. Pilot fatigue (18 hours awake equals 0.05% BAC... never read about that in the Newspapers)
3. Regulator oversight, or lack of, generally contributing to (1) and (2)
How many pilots under the influence of alcohol have been the cause of airline disasters?
I'm not condoning turning up to work under the influence, but most of the responses in this thread are trying to paint a picture that simply doesn't exist.
The 3 major contributors to airline disasters are:
1. Financial pressure on the Company causing corner-cutting in standards, maintenance etc
2. Pilot fatigue (18 hours awake equals 0.05% BAC... never read about that in the Newspapers)
3. Regulator oversight, or lack of, generally contributing to (1) and (2)
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Sussex Police statement this morning:-
A spokesman for Sussex Police said: “At about 8.25pm on Thursday (18 January), police received a report of a member of airline staff suspected to have been under the influence at Gatwick Airport. A 49-year-old man from Harmondsworth, West Drayton, Hillingdon, was arrested on suspicion of performing an aviation function when the level of alcohol was over the prescribed limit. He was taken into police custody and has now been released under investigation.”
A spokesman for Sussex Police said: “At about 8.25pm on Thursday (18 January), police received a report of a member of airline staff suspected to have been under the influence at Gatwick Airport. A 49-year-old man from Harmondsworth, West Drayton, Hillingdon, was arrested on suspicion of performing an aviation function when the level of alcohol was over the prescribed limit. He was taken into police custody and has now been released under investigation.”
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Allegedly during the walk round the P3 drew attention to a possible defect and the engineer concerned noticed a suspicious smell on the breath of the pilot, the engineer communicated their concerns through supervision and Operations and Maintrol were informed, the Police and GAL Ops were called to the aircraft, There was no CC involvement.
And, interestingly, the legal blood alcohol limit for a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer is the same as for a road vehicle driver in England and Wales, that is, four times that permitted for crew.
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Doesn't matter. You see a crime, you tell the police. The weird concept of "using internal procedures instead" is what enabled the Catholic church to cover up paedophile priests for decades, giving rise to who knows how many more victims.
Allegedly during the walk round the P3 drew attention to a possible defect and the engineer concerned noticed a suspicious smell on the breath of the pilot, the engineer communicated their concerns through supervision and Operations and Maintrol were informed, the Police and GAL Ops were called to the aircraft, There was no CC involvement.
As in a link you can share?
Or is this hearsay?
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Silly argument. If you see a colleague under the influence, your first step is to have "a chat". It's not up to you if a "crime" has been committed.
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Well in fairness, there has never, ever, in the the history of scheduled airline transport, been a victim of a drunk pilot. No one has died, no one has been hurt, a few people have been delayed, usually as the result of someone with a personal agenda.
The world (or at least the flying one), may be safer than you think, we work really hard to keep it that way.
The world (or at least the flying one), may be safer than you think, we work really hard to keep it that way.
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Is that a BA or CAA limit Basil? The GAL limit for operation of flight deck systems is the same as a pilot. This group obviously includes LAMEs as well as and pilots.
Last edited by yotty; 22nd Jan 2018 at 20:07.
Found it; goes on a bit but worth knowing:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...0030020_en.pdf
Interesting that it refers to 'during flight' . . . hmm.
From the ANO 2016:
And that's it.
Don't make it easy, do they?
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...0030020_en.pdf
Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003
PART 5
AVIATION: ALCOHOL AND DRUGS
93 Prescribed limit
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) he performs an aviation function at a time when the proportion of
alcohol in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit, or
(b) he carries out an activity which is ancillary to an aviation function at a
time when the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine
exceeds the prescribed limit.
(2) The prescribed limit of alcohol is (subject to subsection (3))—
(a) in the case of breath, 9 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b) in the case of blood, 20 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c) in the case of urine, 27 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 (c. 20)
Part 5 — Aviation: Alcohol and Drugs
41
(3) In relation to the aviation function specified in section 94(1)(h) the prescribed
limit is—
(a) in the case of breath, 35 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b) in the case of blood, 80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c) in the case of urine, 107 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
(4) The Secretary of State may make regulations amending subsection (2) or (3).
(5) Section 94 defines “aviation function” and “ancillary activity” for the purposes
of this Part.
94 Aviation functions
(1) For the purposes of this Part the following (and only the following) are aviation
functions—
(a) acting as a pilot of an aircraft during flight,
(b) acting as flight navigator of an aircraft during flight,
(c) acting as flight engineer of an aircraft during flight,
(d) acting as flight radio-telephony operator of an aircraft during flight,
(e) acting as a member of the cabin crew of an aircraft during flight,
(f) attending the flight deck of an aircraft during flight to give or supervise
training, to administer a test, to observe a period of practice or to
monitor or record the gaining of experience,
(g) acting as an air traffic controller in pursuance of a licence granted under
or by virtue of an enactment (other than a licence granted to a student),
and
(h) acting as a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer.
PART 5
AVIATION: ALCOHOL AND DRUGS
93 Prescribed limit
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) he performs an aviation function at a time when the proportion of
alcohol in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit, or
(b) he carries out an activity which is ancillary to an aviation function at a
time when the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine
exceeds the prescribed limit.
(2) The prescribed limit of alcohol is (subject to subsection (3))—
(a) in the case of breath, 9 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b) in the case of blood, 20 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c) in the case of urine, 27 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 (c. 20)
Part 5 — Aviation: Alcohol and Drugs
41
(3) In relation to the aviation function specified in section 94(1)(h) the prescribed
limit is—
(a) in the case of breath, 35 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b) in the case of blood, 80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c) in the case of urine, 107 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
(4) The Secretary of State may make regulations amending subsection (2) or (3).
(5) Section 94 defines “aviation function” and “ancillary activity” for the purposes
of this Part.
94 Aviation functions
(1) For the purposes of this Part the following (and only the following) are aviation
functions—
(a) acting as a pilot of an aircraft during flight,
(b) acting as flight navigator of an aircraft during flight,
(c) acting as flight engineer of an aircraft during flight,
(d) acting as flight radio-telephony operator of an aircraft during flight,
(e) acting as a member of the cabin crew of an aircraft during flight,
(f) attending the flight deck of an aircraft during flight to give or supervise
training, to administer a test, to observe a period of practice or to
monitor or record the gaining of experience,
(g) acting as an air traffic controller in pursuance of a licence granted under
or by virtue of an enactment (other than a licence granted to a student),
and
(h) acting as a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer.
From the ANO 2016:
Drunkenness in aircraft
242.—(1) A person must not enter any aircraft when drunk, or be drunk in any aircraft.
(2) A person must not, when acting as a member of the crew of any aircraft or being carried in any aircraft for the purpose of acting as a member of the crew, be under the influence of drink or a drug to such an extent as to impair their capacity so to act.
242.—(1) A person must not enter any aircraft when drunk, or be drunk in any aircraft.
(2) A person must not, when acting as a member of the crew of any aircraft or being carried in any aircraft for the purpose of acting as a member of the crew, be under the influence of drink or a drug to such an extent as to impair their capacity so to act.
Don't make it easy, do they?
Last edited by Basil; 23rd Jan 2018 at 09:36. Reason: add ANO
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Big difference though. One is being a naughty boy in GALs eyes the other is an offence as laid down by act of parliament. There are BA rules that may have been infringed.
What does the Police statement “ released pending investigation “ mean?
What does the Police statement “ released pending investigation “ mean?
"Released under investigation", as it is normally referred to, means that the police have interviewed you under caution and then released you into indefinite limbo (possibly with some conditions as to who you can contact, etc) while they investigate the alleged offence at their own pace and eventually decide whether to charge you or take no further action.
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Resident insomniac
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Well, the guy either blew over the limit or he didn't.
Mitigating circumstances for being over the limit are usually dealt with in court, though might be 'under discussion' before charges are brought.
Mitigating circumstances for being over the limit are usually dealt with in court, though might be 'under discussion' before charges are brought.
"Released under investigation", as it is normally referred to, means that the police have interviewed you under caution and then released you into indefinite limbo (possibly with some conditions as to who you can contact, etc) while they investigate the alleged offence at their own pace and eventually decide whether to charge you or take no further action.
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A Pakistani pilot has been jailed for nine months in Britain for being drunk before he was due to fly a plane with 156 people on board.
https://news.sky.com/story/drunk-pia...itain-10427045
https://news.sky.com/story/drunk-pia...itain-10427045
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I don't think the breathalyser results can be used in evidence at the lower aviation limit; a blood and/or urine sample will be taken and that is what will be used in Court, if it comes to that.
I suspect the police are waiting for the results of that test before deciding what course of action to take.
Follow this link to obtain a document detailing the procedure followed by the police in cases such as this. It's from a different police authority, but I'd expect all forces will have a similar procedure.
This is a document I'd suggest anyone carrying out an 'aviation-related function' should study; it makes for sobering reading.
I suspect the police are waiting for the results of that test before deciding what course of action to take.
Follow this link to obtain a document detailing the procedure followed by the police in cases such as this. It's from a different police authority, but I'd expect all forces will have a similar procedure.
This is a document I'd suggest anyone carrying out an 'aviation-related function' should study; it makes for sobering reading.
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What pray does that have to do with the subject under discussion?
How does being "actively employed as Commercial Aircrew" make any difference to views and opinions on a possible (and I stress possible) case of being over the limit when in charge of an aircraft??