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FO removed from BA Flight

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FO removed from BA Flight

Old 21st Jan 2018, 03:34
  #61 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Balikpapan, INDONESIA
Age: 67
Posts: 519
Of equal concern is the disruption to available hours of sleep. While fasting, if that's what you want to do, then any eating needs to occur outside of daylight hours and is accompanied by a strict regime of prayer. So, depending on geographic location and time of year, this can mean getting up as early as 3 am for a morning meal (break fast, get it) and not being able to go to bed until 10 or 11 at night.

This inevitably has a major impact on restful sleep patterns. Combine it with flying duties and a bit of ketone on the breath then becomes a minor problem. Though not for the person sitting next to you.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 03:49
  #62 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,017
is it normal these days for BA to have FO who is 49 years old? Assuming he started his carrier in early 20s he must be approacing 18-20k hours under his belt?
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 03:52
  #63 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eagles Nest
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Anyone got any ideas on how to get help to a person before it blows up like this ? You got someone you know who has reputation for being a bit of a binge drinker , few run ins with the law , history of failed relationships , family concerns but he is a good bloke so he gets looked after . Any approach sees his friends and family circle the wagons ! Intervention ? Or it has to blow up before anything can be done ?
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 04:06
  #64 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: phoenix, AZ, USA
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem View Post
Fasting and flying is very common in the Middle East.
In the USA as well. A good friend of mine is Muslim and will not eat or drink during the day during Ramadan. He has flown like this for over 20 years. Even working out in the gym, he stays faithful. Pretty impressive.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 06:26
  #65 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Fasting and flying is very common in the Middle East
But is it wise, given the symptoms of low blood sugar? The religion doesn't seem to demand it given the edicts I've read, quite the reverse.

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Old 21st Jan 2018, 06:49
  #66 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas, like a whole other country
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Originally Posted by blind pew View Post
In the 70s or early 80s a 747 rolled onto its back after take off in ANC iirc..captain was that drunk that he had to be helped up the steps. Ground crew and Fo weren't allowed to question the captain in those days..company made breath tests mandatory.
I lived in ANC for a few years. I never heard of this incident. Can you cite a source for this info? Thanks.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 07:16
  #67 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newcastle
Age: 49
Posts: 563
It was a Dc8.

JAL Cargo Flight 8054 was a charter flight on January 13, 1977, from Grant County, Washington to Tokyo with a stopover in Anchorage. The flight crashed during the initial climb phase, shortly after takeoff from Anchorage due to pilot intoxication.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 07:18
  #68 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Up North
Posts: 7
I urge people not to read too much into media regards police response! From my perspective (10 years) there's likely to have been a lot going on around that time of day for any police service and no doubt Gatwick's ARV's were closest/closest available unit. Between 7-9 (on a late) is a cracking break time for a uniform patrol cop.

I'd be shocked if the officers went on board with firearms deployed, no doubt rifles were stowed in vehicle safe and they had Glocks on their legs/tasers on vests.

Handcuffs - officer's personal responsibility; resulting in a "use of force" form at the end of the shift. Depends how FO was transported to custody, if he sat in the back of the ARV then I'd say handcuffs were a 100% due to him being an unknown entity (be it unstable through alcohol or medically and the fact he likely has no criminal record to speak of).

From a speculative POV (and I have no idea how they board this type of flight at Gatwick). At my airfield a 777 is boarded via air bridge through door 2nd door just forward of the wing - if this is the case - I'm surprised no video has emerged of the arrest/intervention...unless the Police were more discreet than people think.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 08:27
  #69 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Originally Posted by CargoOne View Post
is it normal these days for BA to have FO who is 49 years old? Assuming he started his carrier in early 20s he must be approacing 18-20k hours under his belt?
Not that unusual...all sorts of reasons why, but the usual reason is since BA, like many other airlines, uses a seniority based promotion system if you join as a DEP your flying hours accrued in a previous company/military donít accelerate your move to the left hand seat, you join the bottom of the umpteen years queue for a chance of an upgrade.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 08:29
  #70 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 338
Originally Posted by Pace View Post
Saw a programme on the superefficient Japanese rail system
When the drivers clock into work they go through a security gate
Along that stretch is a device which they blow into taking less than a minute to check they are alcohol free for duty

I am surprised a similar check isnít made at airports
A lot is saving pilots from themselves and hence their careers
My Japanese wife say's it's the same for Japanese airline pilots. It's all part of everyone from the ground up to the company chairman taking pride in being seen to do their jobs properly.

She was surprised when I said that there's no similar system here. Maybe there should be.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 08:45
  #71 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 661
I don’t think there would be any complaints at a ground up system of alcohol and drugs checking before work from the cleaner through to pilots, management and continuing up to judges, lawmakers, etc. I think what annoys many is seeing the workers being treated like potential terrorists and criminals every time they go to work while others get merry in a subsidized company or parliamentary bar and then go on to make some life changing votes or decisions.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 09:00
  #72 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,085
I think there's a bit of a difference..............
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 09:01
  #73 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: pluto
Posts: 167

is it normal these days for BA to have FO who is 49 years old? Assuming he started his carrier in early 20s he must be approacing 18-20k hours under his belt?
Ex mil, ex some other carrier, ex different career.

So that's that one put to bed. Move along now, and like a lot of the posters here, try not to assume.

*see wiggy's post above for fuller explanation.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 09:01
  #74 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2014
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Originally Posted by sharksandwich View Post
I am shocked that fasting, and the consequent effect on blood sugar levels leading to impoverished judgement , is common amongst flight crew. Is superstitious irrational belief more important than safety?

What's shocking is how little the general population, let along pilots whose livelihoods depend on their health, understand about their endocrine system.

You do not need to eat to "keep up your blood sugar levels". Your body can do that on its own, unless you are diabetic.

If you are suffering from lethargy after not eating for a little while then it is an indictment of your poor diet which relies on mostly refined carbs and sugar.

It is little surprise that the western population is so obese, when was the last time you had a look at what is in your food.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 09:10
  #75 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,085
no news this morning - guess he'll be up in court first thing tomorrow when we'll hear what charges (if any) he faces.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 09:35
  #76 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Between a rock & a hard place.
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Originally Posted by rog747 View Post
why didn't the CC/engineer/red cap whoever called 999 speak to the skipper first in private ?
I am told via the BA grapevine that the captain was approached in the first instance. This is hearsay. The chain of events following is purely speculative but, if the police were called by other than the captain assumptions can be made that the captain was persuaded to continue to MRU.

If the statement that a 49 year old male remains in custody is also correct, it is highly probable that suspicion of an offence taking place was the correct action. The reason a suspect would remain in custody on suspicion of any alcohol related offence would be that they remain too intoxicated to be interviewed about the circumstances. Detainees have three options to prove innocence or guilt in alcohol related offences. Blood sample, urine sample or breath sample from the custody suite intoximetre. The intoximetre is instant and admissible evidence. Two readings are taken and the lower one is used for evidential purposes. Suspects who need to be questioned will often be given a few hours in custody and the breath tests repeated until they are deemed within limits to be interviewed.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 09:51
  #77 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Beyond the Blue Horizon
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With regards to testing, we have in my own industry (construction), started carrying out random testing (both Blue and White collar) in the UK and the findings are appalling in my view. However the issue is not alcohol but drugs. On one project I am aware of they had a 60% failure rate ! Another rail infrastructure company carrying out similar tests on employees out of circa 3000 test produced about 1700 failure,s, ONLY one of which was for alcohol ! For my generation alcohol was probably, and maybe still is the drug of choice mostly, but that has now very much changed in my industry, not sure about aviation.

I hope the officer involved is treated fairly, and receives treatment / help if required, and is not just hung out to dry, no pun intended.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 10:15
  #78 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 355
On a recent coach trip in the UK, the engine cut out due to overheating in slow London traffic. The driver had to blow into a built in breathalyser before it would allow him to start the engine. I don't know how widespread this is.
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 10:18
  #79 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Oceanside, CA.
Posts: 153
Originally Posted by sharksandwich View Post
You are suggesting pilots fly while indulging in odd blood sugar practices?
I doubt it!
Your 1979 nutritional knowledge (nowadays termed ignorance) and support for Dr. Ancel Keys are showing. Might I suggest some modern reading: The Ketogenic Bible
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Old 21st Jan 2018, 10:20
  #80 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,043
City workers do not drink as much as those in aviation and it's not a point for amusement.
1. My how times must have changed. During a downturn in aviation, 1983(ish) spent over two years in the city, 'heart starters' in the Marine Club at 11.30 were the norm. Drank far more than ever did flying, much entertaining on the company account was also the norm.

2. The only police I ever see at airports these days are heavily armed.

3. Would be interesting to know if the CC side-stepped the usual chain of command and reported this incident to the police without talking to the senior CC and then the captain first. Outcome should involve FO removed and company informed, no doubt, but appropriate action from the company should remove the need to involve the police and the criminal courts, in my humble opinion.
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