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Another wrong rwy close call at SFO

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Another wrong rwy close call at SFO

Old 16th Jan 2018, 10:06
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ion,
apologies, yes of course, the KSFO C/L separation is quoted in feet, 'CC is of course in metres. All the more reason to buy a 'gizmo' then.
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 18:16
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This is installed at SFO NextVue | Harris Symphony CDM

At SFO the AC ac was not tracked for several seconds (the blind spot referenced in reports) and appeared at the end of the taxiway...still no alert (that has been reported)

There is also the PRM radar system which is supposed to track the close spaced parallel runway ops...
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 18:59
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
How ‘bout looking at the airport critically and identifying BOTH runways and remembering what you read back to the tower. I can’t believe aviation has sunk to this level.
I agree, GF. It's all fairly obvious, even with the sidestep maneuver.

I'm not one to blame the guys up front, but how hard is it to apply the knowledge that L means the ribbon of concrete on the left and R, the right? It is the cockpit's responsibility to confirm ATC instructions. Garbled or keyed mike breakup on the frequency is not an excuse for getting it wrong. If in doubt, you ask again.

Well, the airport configeration has been like that for a long time, what is changing is the volume of traffic and possibly the competence of the crews flying in.
Check.
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 19:10
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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If this 'hot-spot' is difficult to observe from the VCR, can't they put a camera/remote VCR/Portakabin closer to the thresholds?

There's a RVCR adjacent to the Polderbaan at EHAM.

Come on KSFO, it's not rocket-science to solve this one.
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 19:23
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why would you all talk video cameras if a PRM radar system provides better data than any eye ever could.

the problem with that is maybe that the system is independent and the data is only ever displayed on a special PRM station in the TRACON which is likely unmanned when PRM approaches are not in use.

and with automated systems predicting conflicts maybe they don't even get the input which runway the plane is approaching. it only gives an alert if the runway is occupied which might not happen until short final as the departing traffic is lining up.

anyway after a certain history for the airport getting PRM data into the tower can't be that hard. and much better than putting a video monitor there. should even be possible to just deduce right or left side from the PRM and just display RIGHT LEFT or UNDECIDED and miles from touchdown for the relevant targets. that would also work on a small extra screen because as always integrating in the existing radar system might prove impractical.
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Old 16th Jan 2018, 19:47
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Portakabin between the 2 runways, manned by a qualified chap with a radio.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 07:20
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Ah. The old human RVR measuring device returns. Strange that in this day of super accurate GPS nav systems, and old fashioned accurate ILS, guys can still screw up. There could be a guy on the threshold with ‘bats’ guiding you in. More gizmos ain’t the answer. More professionalism might just be, and that includes the ground based links in the chain. The fault can lie in designed procedures as well as their execution.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 10:35
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Well back in the day I used to have a 'runway controller' in a 'caravan' just offset from the runway threshold with a flare pistol that worked extremely well.

In the near future expect your aircraft trajectory to be known to the system and it will be apparent from a long way out which runway the aircraft expects to land on. SFO and the operators using it are showing how necessary trajectory based operations are becoming.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 11:47
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There has to be a simple solution to this one.
Without digging around to find the details of each incident, and the Wx conditions occurring at the time of each one, could you not put a large illuminated 'L' and 'R' somewhere adjacent to each runway's approach lighting system?
I was thinking about the large LH and arrow that was painted on the Southall Gas-Holder when EGLL had R/W 23 and Pan Am landed at EGWU in error. As far as I'm aware, it never happened again?
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 12:47
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Idiot's guide to the PRM (Precision Runway Monitor) at SFO:

SFO Fact Sheet - PRM/SOIA

No mention of its use as an automated safety-net, other than a reference to the TRACON controller who monitors the No Transgression Zone (NTZ) between the two approaches and will send you around if you infringe it (which the AC probably didn't).
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 15:03
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Dave,

The PRM is just one of the feeds into nextvue. While nextvue tell you where the ac is, it appears it doesnt warn or coordinate with where it is supposed to be.

NextVue is a web-accessible application that provides visualization of all flights in the National Air Space along with operational monitoring, taxi delay alerts, diversion management and management of irregular operations. Combined with trusted airline prediction models and collaborative decision-making (CDM) functionalities, users can proactively manage congestion and efficiently interface with the FAA’s Traffic Flow Management System (TFMS). NextVue leverages the Exelis NextGen commercial flight traffic surveillance data feed, to provide the most complete, accurate and timely picture of all aircraft in the air and on the ground, throughout and beyond the NAS.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 18:05
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Yes, I'm not seeing anything in that description that sounds like a real-time safety-net.
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Old 13th Feb 2018, 07:46
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SFO/LAX/JFK etc ATC is always in a rush to get rid of traffics. Always using non standard phraseology, pushing pilots to make visual approaches, giving challenging shortcuts and so on. Even english speaking pilots complain about the wording and speed of controllers.
They want to save a second but waist 3 or 4 when the have to repeat the clearance at times.
SFO is and airport where RWYs are so close to each other that it is easy to make a mistake in high work load environment( follow the traffic, clear visual "maintain 180 till outermarker...bla bla bla). Would be easier and safer if they just stick to a safe vectoring philosophy and not to a cowboy stile one. Its not a rodeo!
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Old 13th Feb 2018, 13:04
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To me, SFO is the worst of the lot.
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