Air Canada non go-around at SFO
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I'd be interested to know how controllers in a digital tower such as that about to grace LCY would be able to give light signals in similar circumstances (I'm thinking of loss of comms, rather than occupied runway). Chap/chapess in a little chequered box by the rwy, perhaps? That's progress!
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8 calls from SFO TWR telling them to go-around went unanswered.
Crew answered on the 9th call, after they were on the ground.
Hmmm, hard to figure this one out
One possible explanation is that once cleared to land @6 miles final, PM brought the GRND frequency up on com 1 standby, and inadvertently flipped the switch to GRND? After landing and seeing the red light from TWR, they realized the error and returned to TWR frequency?
One would assume they had 121.5 on com 2 and TWR would call on that frequency prior to firing up the light gun?
Crew answered on the 9th call, after they were on the ground.
Hmmm, hard to figure this one out
One possible explanation is that once cleared to land @6 miles final, PM brought the GRND frequency up on com 1 standby, and inadvertently flipped the switch to GRND? After landing and seeing the red light from TWR, they realized the error and returned to TWR frequency?
One would assume they had 121.5 on com 2 and TWR would call on that frequency prior to firing up the light gun?
Last edited by FlyingCanuk; 4th Nov 2017 at 16:25.
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Thing I would worry about most with commfail on final 28 SFO is a departure off the 01’s. If there’s traffic slow in vacating your own runway, you’ll see it; a departure off 01 is a surprise if you’re unaware.. (for those unfamiliar with SFO, most departures, except heavies, use 01 crossing between 2 landing aircraft on 28, an ATC challenge by itself ).
To be honest there is no real risk landing on a runway with preceding about to vacate, once you get there he is off the runway anyway. Now an encounter with somebody off 01 is something else (George Carlin used to call that “near miss” 😳 ).
BTW, I can’t believe someone with Atc is so naive to assume a pilot would see a red light signal at an International airport. Must be a desk-jockey.
To be honest there is no real risk landing on a runway with preceding about to vacate, once you get there he is off the runway anyway. Now an encounter with somebody off 01 is something else (George Carlin used to call that “near miss” 😳 ).
BTW, I can’t believe someone with Atc is so naive to assume a pilot would see a red light signal at an International airport. Must be a desk-jockey.
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I'd be interested to know how controllers in a digital tower such as that about to grace LCY would be able to give light signals in similar circumstances (I'm thinking of loss of comms, rather than occupied runway). Chap/chapess in a little chequered box by the rwy, perhaps? That's progress!
I seriously doubt it's beyond the wit of man.
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Hey there Chesty (Like your handle, by the way)
Air Traffic Control CLEARANCE: A clearance is an authorization that allows a pilot to do something.
Air Traffic Control INSTRUCTION: An instruction is an action to be executed without delay. There is a difference between an ATC clearance and an ATC instruction
The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft. (b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
Air Traffic Control CLEARANCE: A clearance is an authorization that allows a pilot to do something.
Air Traffic Control INSTRUCTION: An instruction is an action to be executed without delay. There is a difference between an ATC clearance and an ATC instruction
The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft. (b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
Originally Posted by Manadad
Logging on to ACARS when on 6 miles final? I don’t think so.
Our VHF 3 is on the ACARS DATA, and our VHF 2 is on 121.5. So unless ATC transmit on 121.5 (ATC can't do that here) and it is being monitored (see Tangoalpha's post above), the message isn't going to get through.
What's your radio setup, Mana?
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Is there some reason why civil aviation radios don't monitor 121.5 continuously? Military UHF radios monitor 243.0 even if set to a different frequency, and have done so for fifty years that I know of.
Only a humble SLF observation and I appreciate there is such a thing as a conditional clearance but giving someone clearance to land when the runway is occupied is typical of todays habits of using words with no meanings or ignoring the meaning of the words you actually use..
Surely 'You are cleared to land' means just that surely-ie there is nothing in front of you in the air or on the ground, no one is going to taxi or drive a vehicle across the runway -the way ahead is CLEAR. If any of those things are not true then you cannot be CLEAR to land for the simple reason that you are not , there are obstacles in the way so the whole issue becomes pretty pointless and an opening to have an accident at some point
"After the landing, line up and wait" seems like an invitation for problems to me.
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" Mr. Bond they have a saying in Chicago, Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, third time is enemy action." Here third time will be an unmitigated disaster and Air Canada needs to seriously introspect on their procedures and work culture.
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For the SLF reading there is a huge difference between they way they do things in the USA and how most of the rest of the world works.
In Europe they won't give a landing clearance until much later on, in fact until the runway is clear. We do have a "land after" call in the UK but generally they don't use it with commercial aircraft.
In Europe they won't give a landing clearance until much later on, in fact until the runway is clear. We do have a "land after" call in the UK but generally they don't use it with commercial aircraft.
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"The tower controller subsequently instructed the Air Canada crew multiple times to execute a go-around because he was not certain that a preceding arrival would be completely clear of the runway before the Air Canada jet reached the runway threshold," Gregor said,
Is it still the common use e.g. LGW, where ATC would say, "XYZ continue approach, expect late landing clearance, One to vacate."?
Is it still the common use e.g. LGW, where ATC would say, "XYZ continue approach, expect late landing clearance, One to vacate."?
Go around was called because although we called to ask for our clearance to land, we didn't get a response before it was too late and we were forced to go around....
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Clearance - Official authorization for something to proceed or take place.
Nope, just because CLEAR is in clearance does not mean that your path is clear, just that the powers that be have granted authorization to do whatever you are going to do.
"After the landing, line up and wait" seems like an invitation for problems to me.
Nope, just because CLEAR is in clearance does not mean that your path is clear, just that the powers that be have granted authorization to do whatever you are going to do.
"After the landing, line up and wait" seems like an invitation for problems to me.
The USA has their own justification for how and why they do it in this unusual way, but it does lay open the possibility of this actual occurrence, due to the specific way landing clearance is issued in the USA.
The words "reasonable assurance" have a lot to do with this, as I understand it. For those interested, delve into ICAO Doc 4444 7.10.1, 7.10.2 and also look at Figure 7-3 including wording "cleared to cross the threshold of the runway-in-use".
There are some words in 7.10.2 which I believe the USA does not follow - they even have "shall not" in with those words - so I don't know if that is a filed difference by the USA from ICAO, or maybe they are following those. A question to the USA ATCOs regarding this - can you clear an aircraft to land when another one is on the approach ahead and that aircraft has not yet crossed the threshold of the landing runway?
Apologies for getting a bit ATC specific here.
The crew radio procedures and the usage / observation of the light from the tower are two different items concerned in this occurrence, which are other areas for discussion, as some of you all are!
Last edited by Neptune262; 25th Oct 2017 at 07:23.
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Red LIght
.................. Not something a crew would be doing short final to land unless they were having legitimate radio issues and even then PF would be eyes on the runway/instruments with PM perhaps distracted flicking switches and forgetting to maybe look at the tower but in their mind if they were cleared well they were cleared... why look for a light signal? ..................
A suggestion, why can't we have the red flare thing installed at the threshold for active runways. If needed, could be triggered remotely from tower for the required runway?
Not to excuse the Air Canada pilots in this incident but the tower using the light to tell them not too land was perhaps a long shot in this instance.
When the pilots of an aircraft know they are NORDO, then they will look for and expect the proper lights from the tower. However in this case they did not know they had comms problems so they were not inclined to look for or even expect the lights from the control tower.
When the pilots of an aircraft know they are NORDO, then they will look for and expect the proper lights from the tower. However in this case they did not know they had comms problems so they were not inclined to look for or even expect the lights from the control tower.
You are right, especially on a large airport like SFO, Tower may be at a big angle from pilots' line of sight.
A suggestion, why can't we have the red flare thing installed at the threshold for active runways. If needed, could be triggered remotely from tower for the required runway?
A suggestion, why can't we have the red flare thing installed at the threshold for active runways. If needed, could be triggered remotely from tower for the required runway?
I was thinking perhaps a low powered L.A.S.E.R. that could be aimed at the aircraft could replace the spotlights we have today that can be easily lost at major airports with the sea of lights in and around the airports.
Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 25th Oct 2017 at 07:53.
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At CDG you could be cleared to land with one on the runway and two or three ahead of you on approach!
I suppose the logic is that if the twr frequency is busy and the controller cannot get a word in to issue a landing clearance, the landing aircraft already has the clearance.
Default to land.
Drawback is that if something goes wrong and a go arround is required, if the controller cannot get a word in, the default is land instead of the safer option of GA.
No need for flares approach or runway lights that can be turned red if GA required.
I suppose the logic is that if the twr frequency is busy and the controller cannot get a word in to issue a landing clearance, the landing aircraft already has the clearance.
Default to land.
Drawback is that if something goes wrong and a go arround is required, if the controller cannot get a word in, the default is land instead of the safer option of GA.
No need for flares approach or runway lights that can be turned red if GA required.
