Ryanair uses all the runway.
It means at V1 you need to take the first action to stop or if deciding to go you still have the performance to go. And if deciding to go it means you still should be able to be airborne at the far end taking into account the lower acceleration due to one engine.
Flap config, derate, assumed temp, bleeds, etc are just the variables at hand to get to the point where things work out for a given payload and data to minimize costs wear and maximize payload which i don't see any reason for them not trying to go for at every takeoff
Flap config, derate, assumed temp, bleeds, etc are just the variables at hand to get to the point where things work out for a given payload and data to minimize costs wear and maximize payload which i don't see any reason for them not trying to go for at every takeoff
Also if they did indeeed use an assumed temperature there should have been even more margin. From the sounds of the flight they were carrying out I reckon it is more likely they were using close to max takeoff thrust with little if any flex.
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RAT 5 Well if you end up in the grass then you tried to stop to late or didn't get the speedbrakes out or brakes on or whatever in time... Do you know what speed V1 was in this case?
Also as far as i am aware i haven't heard anyone thinking that common sense as well as help such as performance tool or loadsheets are putting anyone at a disadvantage in life... But i trust EASA to know what they are talking about at least...
Also as far as i am aware i haven't heard anyone thinking that common sense as well as help such as performance tool or loadsheets are putting anyone at a disadvantage in life... But i trust EASA to know what they are talking about at least...
I don’t believe regulations are being questioned here. It is whether the performance was correctly calculated. That is where RAT5s common sense thought comes in. Does it look right?
de minimus non curat lex
I find it hard to believe that if everything had been a strict text book launch (applying EASA criteria) then you would end up with the unstick point so close to the end of the runway.
Something clearly went wrong either with the timing & Vr / rate of rotation /
thrust used or a combination of these, and other factors.
It simply cannot be right.......
I entirely concur with RAT5.......... he uses "feel".......my choice of word is "empathy".......
We need the likes of the late Sandy Thomson to teach performance to these junior birdmen. I sure they are out there , not just to teach to pass the exam, but to impart an understanding of what the hell is really going on.
Something clearly went wrong either with the timing & Vr / rate of rotation /
thrust used or a combination of these, and other factors.
It simply cannot be right.......
I entirely concur with RAT5.......... he uses "feel".......my choice of word is "empathy".......
We need the likes of the late Sandy Thomson to teach performance to these junior birdmen. I sure they are out there , not just to teach to pass the exam, but to impart an understanding of what the hell is really going on.
Originally Posted by Robson
It means at V1 you need to take the first action to stop or if deciding to go you still have the performance to go. And if deciding to go it means you still should be able to be airborne at the far end taking into account the lower acceleration due to one engine.
There is a certain amount of sensitivity about discussing this takeoff and appear to be criticising a crew, but personally it is much better being able to dissect this sort of incident and learn from it then having to wait for an AAIB accident report. There are too many lucky takeoffs occurring around the world where people are getting away with it......at some point someone and hundreds of passengers will not be so lucky
I saw an exceptionally tight one at Richmond, VA a while back:
https://youtu.be/wtk0OEK2E9M
I actually think the Ryanair one is worse!
https://youtu.be/wtk0OEK2E9M
I actually think the Ryanair one is worse!
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So was the Delta flight unacceptable? Anyone asking that that flight be investigated? Or is that what a takeoff at runway limited weight looks like? It can be uncomfortable looking out the front window at V1 at the remaining runway and we're often left thinking "well officially this was supposed to work."
But without knowing the performance facts for the flight using that camera angle instead doesn't show proof of harm. I've seen enough weight limited departures to not be astounded at the video.
And check out the difference between rotation rate, and initial pitch attitude, in the Delta MD-88 and the 737-800 videos. Anyone who's flown both models knows why the reason for the difference.
But without knowing the performance facts for the flight using that camera angle instead doesn't show proof of harm. I've seen enough weight limited departures to not be astounded at the video.
And check out the difference between rotation rate, and initial pitch attitude, in the Delta MD-88 and the 737-800 videos. Anyone who's flown both models knows why the reason for the difference.
True (IMHO), but nobody will learn from this one. Enough pilots here are saying no, nothing to see, move along now ... we might as well give up discussing it. There won't be anything useful out of the AAIB on this incident (if it's a reportable incident at all) even if it was reported (unlikely) because there's no evidence apart from this amateur video from a questionable viewpoint – the recorders will surely have been overwritten long ago.
Improved climb Vr/V2 are significantly higher than 'normal' ones but could have same V1 as 'normal' takeoff.
Just for the record, a video showing the "clearway" off the end of 27 at BRS (aircraft lining up for TO from 09). Which is, by the definition, effectively "infinite" since the ground falls away for a mile or more.
https://youtu.be/ZoQQ9AoKhwk?t=4m38s
OTOH, while there is no actual rule about where rotation should occur on the hard surface, relative to runway remaining, nightime centerline lights give a rather strong hint. They turn solid red with 1000 ft/300m remaining.
To me, that says "you really don't want to still have all your gear on the ground entering this area."
If your little green calculator still has you slower than Vr passing 300m remaining, IMHO, you were just a bit too "cute" in your programming assumptions.
OTOOH, I'm sure that the calculated V1 in the takeoff shown originally was adequate for ASDA. But suppose there was a loud "bang" right at Vr in that situation? Startle-factor, reaction time - would that have delayed their "just in time" rotation long enough to put them into the grass and approach lights?
https://youtu.be/ZoQQ9AoKhwk?t=4m38s
OTOH, while there is no actual rule about where rotation should occur on the hard surface, relative to runway remaining, nightime centerline lights give a rather strong hint. They turn solid red with 1000 ft/300m remaining.
To me, that says "you really don't want to still have all your gear on the ground entering this area."
If your little green calculator still has you slower than Vr passing 300m remaining, IMHO, you were just a bit too "cute" in your programming assumptions.
OTOOH, I'm sure that the calculated V1 in the takeoff shown originally was adequate for ASDA. But suppose there was a loud "bang" right at Vr in that situation? Startle-factor, reaction time - would that have delayed their "just in time" rotation long enough to put them into the grass and approach lights?
If passing the piano keys at this "altitude" is accepted and legal practice in the airline industry - as some insiders vociferously suggest here - then I seriously need to reconsider my future air travel arrangements.
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The typical airliner departure isn't anywhere near the runway limited weights. Departures on runway weight limited weight flights use a lot of the runway. The flight in question was probably very near, or at, the runway limited weight.
As pilot observers we listen to engine noise (level of thrust being used), intial acceleration (indication of weight or thrust being used), rotation point, and initial climb rate to estimate the weight of the a/c we're observing.
Just like the videos of the 'Vodka bomber' show certain flights are known to be heavy. UK to TRS from a 2100 meter runway would be worth watching or videoing. Maybe other videos of the same flight number, and the same passenger load, would show if this departure probably was, or wasn't, normal.
As pilot observers we listen to engine noise (level of thrust being used), intial acceleration (indication of weight or thrust being used), rotation point, and initial climb rate to estimate the weight of the a/c we're observing.
Just like the videos of the 'Vodka bomber' show certain flights are known to be heavy. UK to TRS from a 2100 meter runway would be worth watching or videoing. Maybe other videos of the same flight number, and the same passenger load, would show if this departure probably was, or wasn't, normal.
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Legally clearway must be within the Airport boundary and controlled by the Airport Authority.
Departures at BRS to the canaries in a 738 on hot and/or calm summer days tend to be approaching TOPL. I've done one or two! The amount of runway left at V1 on a bona departure at TOPL as others have said is pretty sobering, and a good reminder of why we are go-minded above 80kts!
If there is any doubt, it was sop when I was at Ryanair to email a copy of the Boeing OPT output to mother so they'll have a record of what was input into the EFB. They will also still have the load sheet so a simple gross error check in that respect would be possible. The QAR data may well also be available depending on the time elapsed since the incident.
If there is any doubt, it was sop when I was at Ryanair to email a copy of the Boeing OPT output to mother so they'll have a record of what was input into the EFB. They will also still have the load sheet so a simple gross error check in that respect would be possible. The QAR data may well also be available depending on the time elapsed since the incident.
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I checked this thread out and thought it was just another back seat flyer post however after seeing the video it was obviously too low. Anyone can read Perf A and quote it chapter and verse but when when you watch that and think 'bl**dy h**l with an ounce of experience you know it was wrong. I think we can all be in agreement for one reason or another too much runway was used.
Legally clearway must be within the Airport boundary and controlled by the Airport Authority.
Or do you mean Stopway?
