AC-66 has to repeatly declare MAYDAY to ATC before given clearance
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14/32 was unusable, heavy rain and tail wind. AMD was full, GOI too. HYD was filling up fast, MCT & DEL only other alternative. Complete closure of BOM certainly overloaded ATC.
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underfire, I guess they didn't land at the original destination because there was a 737 in the mud at the end of runway 27 and presumably they couldn't use 14/32 for whatever reason?
14/32 was unusable, heavy rain and tail wind. AMD was full, GOI too. HYD was filling up fast, MCT & DEL only other alternative. Complete closure of BOM certainly overloaded ATC.
why hold for an hour before deciding to divert....nothing gets cleared that fast.
as noted everything was filling up, so the 'news' of calling mayday 4 times enroute for clearance seems a bit like, well...
Last edited by underfire; 8th Oct 2017 at 21:09.
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Would love to hear the tapes as the media reports are a bit contradictory. But this seems to indicate once more that both Controllers and perhaps aircrew are not fully conversant with Emergency communications .
Minimum fuel = Mayday . Period.
Clearances (authorizations) are not needed in emergency.
An airport filled to capacity can be a reason to refuse a diversion request under normal circumstances, , as the aircraft will not have full support , proper parking space or even stairs , but definitively that does not apply to a flight in emergency. That part the Indian CAA should re-enforce to its controllers.
No-one should have to repeat 4x a Mayday to get attention.
My advice is for crew to always to squawk 7700 when you encounter resistance in an emergency , this generally calm down the other side...if they have radar that is .If not , the other option is switch to 121,5.
Telling ATC what you are doing as opposed to waiting for an ATC instruction is also an option.
Minimum fuel = Mayday . Period.
Clearances (authorizations) are not needed in emergency.
An airport filled to capacity can be a reason to refuse a diversion request under normal circumstances, , as the aircraft will not have full support , proper parking space or even stairs , but definitively that does not apply to a flight in emergency. That part the Indian CAA should re-enforce to its controllers.
No-one should have to repeat 4x a Mayday to get attention.
My advice is for crew to always to squawk 7700 when you encounter resistance in an emergency , this generally calm down the other side...if they have radar that is .If not , the other option is switch to 121,5.
Telling ATC what you are doing as opposed to waiting for an ATC instruction is also an option.
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Minimum fuel declaration is NOT a mayday for ATC
EU-OPS and ICAO says this :
The commander shall declare an emergency when calculated usable fuel on landing, at the nearest adequate aerodrome where a safe landing can be performed, is less than final reserve fuel.“
Terms like “Minimum Fuel” or “Fuel priority” are not recognized terms and should not be uses by crews. When Priority is required the terms " MAYDAY [x3] shall be used.
So yes, if a crew mentions minimum fuel it is not treated as an emergency by ATC. Hence the need to call MAYDAY if you need priority. That was the case here apparently It is why they had to do it 4 times to get priority that is interesting. .
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"minimum fuel" is an official EASA term and should be understood by all ATC in the EU.
Means any deviation from present clearance will result in below final reserve fuel on arrival at alternate.
persay it should only be used after a divert has been started as your committed to the alternate airport.
I believe it is in MATS part 1.
Means any deviation from present clearance will result in below final reserve fuel on arrival at alternate.
persay it should only be used after a divert has been started as your committed to the alternate airport.
I believe it is in MATS part 1.
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This is what the FAA's AIM says about it:
5−5−15. Minimum Fuel Advisory
a. pilot.
1. Advise ATC of your minimum fuel status hen your fuel supply has reached a state where, upon reaching destination, you cannot accept any undue delay.
2. Be aware this is not an emergency situation, but merely an advisory that indicates an emergency situation is possible should any undue delay occur.
3. On initial contact the term “minimum fuel” should be used after stating call sign.
4. Be aware a minimum fuel advisory does not imply a need for traffic priority.
5. If the remaining usable fuel supply suggests the need for traffic priority to ensure a safe landing, you should declare an emergency due to low fuel and report fuel remaining in minutes.
b. Controller.
1. When an aircraft declares a state of minimum fuel, relay this information to the facility to whom control jurisdiction is transferred.
2. Be alert for any occurrence which might delay the aircraft.
5−5−15. Minimum Fuel Advisory
a. pilot.
1. Advise ATC of your minimum fuel status hen your fuel supply has reached a state where, upon reaching destination, you cannot accept any undue delay.
2. Be aware this is not an emergency situation, but merely an advisory that indicates an emergency situation is possible should any undue delay occur.
3. On initial contact the term “minimum fuel” should be used after stating call sign.
4. Be aware a minimum fuel advisory does not imply a need for traffic priority.
5. If the remaining usable fuel supply suggests the need for traffic priority to ensure a safe landing, you should declare an emergency due to low fuel and report fuel remaining in minutes.
b. Controller.
1. When an aircraft declares a state of minimum fuel, relay this information to the facility to whom control jurisdiction is transferred.
2. Be alert for any occurrence which might delay the aircraft.
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That is one of the problem : many States have different phraseogies and rules regarding this. . However both your examples indicate that using the term " Fuel minimum " will not give you any priority or assistance from ATC . In fact in some States you will get no reaction .
ICAO PANS OPS states it quite clearly . So, if you expect priortity from ATC , use MAYDAY .
( for those who want to know more may I suggest you visit the (excellent) Skybrary.aero site and type "Fuel emergencies , advice to controllers " in the search box )
ICAO PANS OPS states it quite clearly . So, if you expect priortity from ATC , use MAYDAY .
( for those who want to know more may I suggest you visit the (excellent) Skybrary.aero site and type "Fuel emergencies , advice to controllers " in the search box )
I thought we'd all got on board with ICAO on this one.
"Minimum fuel" = If I have further delays I may land with less than final reserves. Situational awareness phrase only. No priority can be expected.
"Mayday fuel" = I have calculated that I will land with less than final reserves. Priority will be given as per any emergency.
"Minimum fuel" = If I have further delays I may land with less than final reserves. Situational awareness phrase only. No priority can be expected.
"Mayday fuel" = I have calculated that I will land with less than final reserves. Priority will be given as per any emergency.
Only half a speed-brake
"minimum fuel" is an official EASA term and should be understood by all ATC in the EU.
Means any deviation from present clearance will result in below final reserve fuel on arrival at alternate.
persay it should only be used after a divert has been started as your committed to the alternate airport. .
Means any deviation from present clearance will result in below final reserve fuel on arrival at alternate.
persay it should only be used after a divert has been started as your committed to the alternate airport. .
Only once commited to the last landing airport possible (be that the original DEST, planned ALTN or simply any other diversion field), "minimum fuel" will be used when possible further delays would result in arrival below FRSF.
Just in case there is any doubt, speaking as someone who has the delightful chore of operating into and out of these poor excuses for airports, you tell them what your doing and where you are going...do not bother discussing or explaining and realise you are dealing with for the most part idiots who think that speaking faster and shouting over the radio makes them more intelligent.
Indian ATC, it's an oxymoron
Indian ATC, it's an oxymoron
It's not unknown that once a major airport is closed by a sudden incident, both routings to and capacity at the diversion point can rapidly diminish and cause difficulty to anyone who held for a good while.
Delta had a comparable incident (without the repeated need to emphasise their situation) back in the 1990s, with I believe an MD-11, where London Gatwick was obstructed, it held for quite a time until they had to divert to Manchester, for which they then got a non-optimum flight level and extended track, and then congestion approaching Manchester. They were actually offered Liverpool as a straight-in option. I think there was an AAIB report.
Delta had a comparable incident (without the repeated need to emphasise their situation) back in the 1990s, with I believe an MD-11, where London Gatwick was obstructed, it held for quite a time until they had to divert to Manchester, for which they then got a non-optimum flight level and extended track, and then congestion approaching Manchester. They were actually offered Liverpool as a straight-in option. I think there was an AAIB report.
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To reiterate, no "minimum fuel" calls whilst holding for the intended destination, with alternate fuel still on board. Correct?
Technically you could be saying it in the hold at destination if you have no alternate.