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Another Wrong Turn at HKG..?

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Another Wrong Turn at HKG..?

Old 26th Sep 2017, 04:41
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Another Wrong Turn at HKG..?

Strange things occurring lately around Lantau...

Incident: Atlas B748 at Hong Kong on Sep 24th 2017, immediate wrong turn after takeoff
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 05:05
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I remember back in the round dial days getting bass ackward on the back course departure off of runway 13 at Kai Tak. Maybe the HSI was still set up from the checkerboard approach and we spun it around or something. Or was there a switch to flip? Somehow I had reverse sensing on the localizer.

As I started to drift toward some highrises the tower controller gave me a gentle cue to 'please say heading'.

Back in those days, what happened in the Pac Rim stayed in the Pac Rim and the plane didn't phone home.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 05:46
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Can someone post the ATC tape ?
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 06:51
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Third Attempt

This is the third attempt in a little over a year to hit Lantau island. Atlas 748, Air China A320 and Shenzhen A320. I guess if you have an airport right next to a 3064ft hill then eventually someone will hit it.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 07:01
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Situational awareness seems a little off, but it would be interesting to know exactly what ATC said becasue that might be where some confusion arose.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 08:09
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Out of luck with the ATC feed.
The take off clearance appears here: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/vh...2017-1530Z.mp3 at 12:30 into recording.
And hand over to Departure occurs here: same tape at 14:09
The departure feed has been down for almost a week So there is nothing further.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 13:17
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No judgement from me. This has happened several times and it's a good learning topic. If memory serves me right, PORPA/ROVER is at around 8DME. If you're turning right before that, following the magenta, HDG SEL and reevaluate. Thankfully, it's only a topic of discussion and not an accident enquiry.
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Old 26th Sep 2017, 15:10
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
The take off clearance appears here: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/vh...2017-1530Z.mp3 at 12:30 into recording.
On my Windows 10 computer using the Edge browser I get the CX 86 takeoff clearance at 12:06. I can't figure out why the LiveATC.net time stamps seem to vary so much depending on the .mp3 player used.
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Old 27th Sep 2017, 21:24
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Just wondering if their GPS initialisation was correct . Although there would be an update on TOGA application, if the coordinates where too far off, there would be a map shift -hence
a shifted magenta line ....
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Old 27th Sep 2017, 22:01
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GPS initialization?
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 09:39
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Doubt it: and, when concrete nimbus is in the neighbourhood it is a good idea to have raw data back-up, e,g, DME and monitor it. This should be a basic airmanship method, especially as so many airports are noise sensitive on SIDS and will punish the company severely for transgressions. Magenta line is not guaranteed; same as the speed limits displayed on my TomTom. Bust the real ones and TomTom is no defence.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 09:42
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Wouldn't there be a check of tracks and distances between waypoints on the SID, or at least a "that looks about right" check of the magenta line when arming LNAV before (or after) takeoff?
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 10:01
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Pretty easy SID, straight ahead to PORPA then a right turn. The FMC and ND show clearly straight ahead for 7miles then right turn, not complicated in the least.

They must have executed an incorrect “direct to” after misunderstanding an ATC instruction, forgot or didn’t read the note saying “Due to terrain, right turn must not commence before PORPA”

Late night, body clock probably very early morning for them, thought they heard cleared direct RAMEN and turned right.......damn lucky.

Last edited by ACMS; 28th Sep 2017 at 10:12.
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Old 28th Sep 2017, 22:20
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Originally Posted by ACMS View Post
Pretty easy SID, straight ahead to PORPA then a right turn. The FMC and ND show clearly straight ahead for 7miles then right turn, not complicated in the least.
It's no longer shown on the RNAV SID, but is on the RWY 07R ILS chart, that PORPA is at D7.0 ISR. I and most pilots I fly with, manually tune the ILS to ISR and confirm we have D7.0 before turning. Protects against any LNAV errors.
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 16:07
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Magenta line is not guaranteed
It had better be, I fly RNP-AR approaches and departures every day.
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Old 29th Sep 2017, 19:36
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
It had better be, I fly RNP-AR approaches and departures every day.
It depends if the SID/APP is taken from the database, checked twice and NOT modified... Otherwise rubbish in rubbish out. This one looks like a turn at the conditional WPT at 400AAL direct to PORCH, so at a guess someone deleted PORPA and the rest is history! HKG ATC do not give any speed/WPT instructions until established on a southerly track although they might give a speed control clearance with about 45 to go. Looking at the track on '24, I would suggest that they weren't even on 123.8 (departure) before they were over the highest ground and it would be this controller who would issue speed and ALT clearances. Perhaps a touch of controller fatigue might be in the frame as they are usually very quick to bring errant visitors back to the line!
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Old 30th Sep 2017, 06:30
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B748 had a naughty habit of deciding when it wanted to turn all by itself when I flew it. Maybe it just didn't like me, Boeing promised it would behave with blockpoint 3.....but I wasn't around to see blockpoint 2.9

Then again maybe it was just me.
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Old 30th Sep 2017, 11:20
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Cocky, love your humorous take . Comps don't like me either & I am sure people are pointing fingers at me and talking about me in the pub ! Airbubba, forcing me back to the glory days. Older generation FMC's were updated by radio aids. Remember things like IRU's and the triangular cocked hat resolution that would often be the very reason for position error ? SOP was for areas of known or potential poor radio updating , handling pilot to be on raw and non- handling to monitor the map. That was for departures as well as arrivals.

I worked for one company that never really got it, loved automation, and, not kidding, actually recommended the other way round.

Modern kit, I believe has satnav and very accurate. Raw data deps and arrivals might be openly laughed at by the......." kids of the..........." ,oooooops, sorry, nearly said it,modern pilots, even for monitoring. Can't , really, blame them for following the magenta line, eh ?
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Old 30th Sep 2017, 14:54
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garbage in, garbage out

Only with great difficulty, can I believe that there are some crews who cannot ensure that FMS departure info is exactly in accordance with cleared SID. Any extra time checking on the ground is of extreme value to ensure everything is OK before take-off. Only then can it be considered that magenta line is likely correct.
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Old 30th Sep 2017, 16:37
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Originally Posted by Bleve View Post
It's no longer shown on the RNAV SID, but is on the RWY 07R ILS chart, that PORPA is at D7.0 ISR. I and most pilots I fly with, manually tune the ILS to ISR and confirm we have D7.0 before turning. Protects against any LNAV errors.
Actually it is shown on the RNAV SID as of the 28 Jul 17 charts.

I just landed in HKG and was thinking about this as we came in. I am wondering if they put in the runway but failed to load the departure in the FMS. That would explain the turn. I imagine their first waypoint on their flightplan was Ocean. Arm LNAV prior to departure and at 400' it turns direct to Ocean. Would just about put them right into the mountain.

Can't wait to see a report on this.
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