Another Wrong Turn at HKG..?
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Another Wrong Turn at HKG..?
Strange things occurring lately around Lantau...
Incident: Atlas B748 at Hong Kong on Sep 24th 2017, immediate wrong turn after takeoff
Incident: Atlas B748 at Hong Kong on Sep 24th 2017, immediate wrong turn after takeoff
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I remember back in the round dial days getting bass ackward on the back course departure off of runway 13 at Kai Tak. Maybe the HSI was still set up from the checkerboard approach and we spun it around or something. Or was there a switch to flip? Somehow I had reverse sensing on the localizer.
As I started to drift toward some highrises the tower controller gave me a gentle cue to 'please say heading'.
Back in those days, what happened in the Pac Rim stayed in the Pac Rim and the plane didn't phone home.
As I started to drift toward some highrises the tower controller gave me a gentle cue to 'please say heading'.
Back in those days, what happened in the Pac Rim stayed in the Pac Rim and the plane didn't phone home.
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Third Attempt
This is the third attempt in a little over a year to hit Lantau island. Atlas 748, Air China A320 and Shenzhen A320. I guess if you have an airport right next to a 3064ft hill then eventually someone will hit it.
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Situational awareness seems a little off, but it would be interesting to know exactly what ATC said becasue that might be where some confusion arose.
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Out of luck with the ATC feed.
The take off clearance appears here: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/vh...2017-1530Z.mp3 at 12:30 into recording.
And hand over to Departure occurs here: same tape at 14:09
The departure feed has been down for almost a week So there is nothing further.
The take off clearance appears here: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/vh...2017-1530Z.mp3 at 12:30 into recording.
And hand over to Departure occurs here: same tape at 14:09
The departure feed has been down for almost a week So there is nothing further.
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The take off clearance appears here: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/vh...2017-1530Z.mp3 at 12:30 into recording.
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Just wondering if their GPS initialisation was correct . Although there would be an update on TOGA application, if the coordinates where too far off, there would be a map shift -hence
a shifted magenta line ....
a shifted magenta line ....
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Doubt it: and, when concrete nimbus is in the neighbourhood it is a good idea to have raw data back-up, e,g, DME and monitor it. This should be a basic airmanship method, especially as so many airports are noise sensitive on SIDS and will punish the company severely for transgressions. Magenta line is not guaranteed; same as the speed limits displayed on my TomTom. Bust the real ones and TomTom is no defence.
Wouldn't there be a check of tracks and distances between waypoints on the SID, or at least a "that looks about right" check of the magenta line when arming LNAV before (or after) takeoff?
Pretty easy SID, straight ahead to PORPA then a right turn. The FMC and ND show clearly straight ahead for 7miles then right turn, not complicated in the least.
They must have executed an incorrect “direct to” after misunderstanding an ATC instruction, forgot or didn’t read the note saying “Due to terrain, right turn must not commence before PORPA”
Late night, body clock probably very early morning for them, thought they heard cleared direct RAMEN and turned right.......damn lucky.
They must have executed an incorrect “direct to” after misunderstanding an ATC instruction, forgot or didn’t read the note saying “Due to terrain, right turn must not commence before PORPA”
Late night, body clock probably very early morning for them, thought they heard cleared direct RAMEN and turned right.......damn lucky.
Last edited by ACMS; 28th Sep 2017 at 09:12.
It's no longer shown on the RNAV SID, but is on the RWY 07R ILS chart, that PORPA is at D7.0 ISR. I and most pilots I fly with, manually tune the ILS to ISR and confirm we have D7.0 before turning. Protects against any LNAV errors.
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It depends if the SID/APP is taken from the database, checked twice and NOT modified... Otherwise rubbish in rubbish out. This one looks like a turn at the conditional WPT at 400AAL direct to PORCH, so at a guess someone deleted PORPA and the rest is history! HKG ATC do not give any speed/WPT instructions until established on a southerly track although they might give a speed control clearance with about 45° to go. Looking at the track on '24, I would suggest that they weren't even on 123.8 (departure) before they were over the highest ground and it would be this controller who would issue speed and ALT clearances. Perhaps a touch of controller fatigue might be in the frame as they are usually very quick to bring errant visitors back to the line!
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B748 had a naughty habit of deciding when it wanted to turn all by itself when I flew it. Maybe it just didn't like me, Boeing promised it would behave with blockpoint 3.....but I wasn't around to see blockpoint 2.9
Then again maybe it was just me.
Then again maybe it was just me.
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Cocky, love your humorous take . Comps don't like me either & I am sure people are pointing fingers at me and talking about me in the pub ! Airbubba, forcing me back to the glory days. Older generation FMC's were updated by radio aids. Remember things like IRU's and the triangular cocked hat resolution that would often be the very reason for position error ? SOP was for areas of known or potential poor radio updating , handling pilot to be on raw and non- handling to monitor the map. That was for departures as well as arrivals.
I worked for one company that never really got it, loved automation, and, not kidding, actually recommended the other way round.
Modern kit, I believe has satnav and very accurate. Raw data deps and arrivals might be openly laughed at by the......." kids of the..........." ,oooooops, sorry, nearly said it,modern pilots, even for monitoring. Can't , really, blame them for following the magenta line, eh ?
I worked for one company that never really got it, loved automation, and, not kidding, actually recommended the other way round.
Modern kit, I believe has satnav and very accurate. Raw data deps and arrivals might be openly laughed at by the......." kids of the..........." ,oooooops, sorry, nearly said it,modern pilots, even for monitoring. Can't , really, blame them for following the magenta line, eh ?
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garbage in, garbage out
Only with great difficulty, can I believe that there are some crews who cannot ensure that FMS departure info is exactly in accordance with cleared SID. Any extra time checking on the ground is of extreme value to ensure everything is OK before take-off. Only then can it be considered that magenta line is likely correct.
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I just landed in HKG and was thinking about this as we came in. I am wondering if they put in the runway but failed to load the departure in the FMS. That would explain the turn. I imagine their first waypoint on their flightplan was Ocean. Arm LNAV prior to departure and at 400' it turns direct to Ocean. Would just about put them right into the mountain.
Can't wait to see a report on this.
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I just landed in HKG and was thinking about this as we came in. I am wondering if they put in the runway but failed to load the departure in the FMS. That would explain the turn. I imagine their first waypoint on their flightplan was Ocean. Arm LNAV prior to departure and at 400' it turns direct to Ocean. Would just about put them right into the mountain.
Cathay Pacific (CX) #86 24-Sep-2017 HKG / VHHH - PANC FlightAware
Since RASSE is on V3 and the B-748 has radius-to-fix capability my guess for the departure off 07R after 15Z was the RASSE1E:
http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/A...RASSE%20EF.pdf
However, I've guessed wrong many times in my own plane in HKG and other exotic departure points.
Note that PORPA is not a fly-over point on the RF departure.
I can't imagine even a cargo crew not briefing and setting a departure out of Hong Kong.
Did they guess the wrong departure or runway, catch the mistake when the picture didn't look right lining up on the runway and try to hurriedly patch the route at the wrong point dropping PORPA?Will there be a report? Or, since it's a freighter maybe only a company ASAP mea culpa filed and a note two months later in the company safety bulletin?
And maybe a noise violation fine for Cathay or Atlas/Polar?