Korean 777 interception and diversion
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas, like a whole other country
Posts: 444
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
hEMS Driver: I'm pretty sure Baofeng radios are made in China, not that it matters. But why would a preofessional air crew feel compelled to carry one?
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The dark side of the moon
Posts: 345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I heard KAL917 on 121.5 as I was getting airborne out of London. It sounded like the Captain had already started the descent shortly after, as he was reporting the level passing and waypoint passed.
I had an idea to SELCAL him on 121.5, but ECAM lit up and of course, our priority was our flight. After we solved our aircraft's problems I SATCOM'd Zurich to get their SELCAL code off the filed flight plan. Too late, fighters were apparently leading him into Stuttgart.
On another point, if you are intercepted ICAO rules state that the intercepted is to follow the interceptor even if it contradicts ATC clearances.
Additionally, the phrase "TRANSMITTING BLIND" should have been used in 917's transmissions if they were unable to hear other stations.
I wonder if KAL917 tried SATCOM, HF or even an ACARs back to KAL?
I had an idea to SELCAL him on 121.5, but ECAM lit up and of course, our priority was our flight. After we solved our aircraft's problems I SATCOM'd Zurich to get their SELCAL code off the filed flight plan. Too late, fighters were apparently leading him into Stuttgart.
On another point, if you are intercepted ICAO rules state that the intercepted is to follow the interceptor even if it contradicts ATC clearances.
Additionally, the phrase "TRANSMITTING BLIND" should have been used in 917's transmissions if they were unable to hear other stations.
I wonder if KAL917 tried SATCOM, HF or even an ACARs back to KAL?
Very easy to lose contact over Europe. Recollect doing so when, IIRC, we were not transferred. By the time we realised there was a problem, we were out of range of our assigned frequency. A spot of frenetic frequency changing ensued before we made contact.
We were on a route check. The checker was not sympathetic.
We were on a route check. The checker was not sympathetic.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
From what I heard while monitoring 121,5, another Korean Air flight (think it was KE904) over Germany actually did arrange to have an ACARS message sent. But apparently no response to that either.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Between a Rock and a Hard Spot
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The BaoFeng BF-F8HP doesn't transmit or receive on the VHF or UHF airbands so it might not be much help. I believe it is made in China, I'm not sure.
I have tried to carry a handheld airband transceiver internationally in the past but the customs folks always want to confiscate it at places like DXB, BOM, SIN, ICN and PVG since it may require a local license or even be illegal in some countries. After talking my way out of trouble a couple of times, I quit carrying the radio.
I have tried to carry a handheld airband transceiver internationally in the past but the customs folks always want to confiscate it at places like DXB, BOM, SIN, ICN and PVG since it may require a local license or even be illegal in some countries. After talking my way out of trouble a couple of times, I quit carrying the radio.
Look here.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Between a Rock and a Hard Spot
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of pilots carry a hand-held backup radio for when the high-tech kit fails.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
The version I posted does in fact transmit and receive. Look here.
Look here.
BaoFeng BF-F8HP (UV-5R 3rd Gen) 8-Watt Dual Band Two-Way Radio (136-174MHz VHF & 400-520MHz UHF)
If you know someone who is a pilot, they might be able to explain it to you.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In certain countries, unless you are a licenced pilot or Air Traffic Controller, in the course of your duties, using a transmitter on ATC frequencies is illegal, may even be illegal to own such a transmitter, not sure about that. Usually only listening is allowed.
Maybe some sealed standby brick should be made standard in cockpits? Still don't get what made them lose all incoming comms together?
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: firmly on dry land
Age: 80
Posts: 1,541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regardless of the facts, if there is any suspicion that all is not well, time is of the essence. This is especially true in the case of land borders.
Then, once intercepted and situation apparently resolved, the interceptors will almost invariably remain as shepherd until the aircraft, now identified as X-Ray has landed at the designated aircraft.
Far safer to follow such procedures to a conclusion.
Then, once intercepted and situation apparently resolved, the interceptors will almost invariably remain as shepherd until the aircraft, now identified as X-Ray has landed at the designated aircraft.
Far safer to follow such procedures to a conclusion.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I always carry a hand transmitter when I fly. Licensed ham, amateur extra level in the US + an equivalent Japanese license. Some transmitters can broadcast on aviation frequencies, though I am not sure about the legality of those - probably depends on the country and whether or not you have a license there.
Couldn't an ACARS or other data message be sent to HQ then telephoned to ATC by someone on the ground? The 777 has something like 3 VHF radios and probably 3 VHF antennas as well, but there are also the HF antennas and radios which should be able to contact somebody, somewhere.
My confidence in Asian pilots is very low. I've been running a training program for the last 5 years trying to teach Asian pilots how to deal with this kind of problem (Fixation, poor crew coordination etc). I wish I could get them all to come to my course to avoid stuff like this incident.
It seems very unlikely that all radios and antennas could fail in midflight.
Couldn't an ACARS or other data message be sent to HQ then telephoned to ATC by someone on the ground? The 777 has something like 3 VHF radios and probably 3 VHF antennas as well, but there are also the HF antennas and radios which should be able to contact somebody, somewhere.
My confidence in Asian pilots is very low. I've been running a training program for the last 5 years trying to teach Asian pilots how to deal with this kind of problem (Fixation, poor crew coordination etc). I wish I could get them all to come to my course to avoid stuff like this incident.
It seems very unlikely that all radios and antennas could fail in midflight.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Couldn't ACARS msg have been sent.." Do we know it wasn't ? What's been published so far certainly doesn't justify your blanket slating of Asian pilots. Come on! And trying to cart a transceiver round a long haul route guarantees confiscation/encounters with snotty jobsworths on all continents. What we do know is lots of people trying a bit too hard to be helpful by talking but not listening. Shades of an interception over North Sea a few months ago where the intercepted aircraft's responses on 121.5 went apparently unheard while events escalated and everyone got shouty.
Last edited by ShotOne; 21st Jul 2017 at 19:53.
The 777 has something like 3 VHF radios
I'm not sure adding an "brick" adds much in the way of redundancy if you want to initiate a conversation with someone, and if you're not listening you're not listening........................
Last edited by wiggy; 22nd Jul 2017 at 08:49.
Im more interested to know what combination of hardware/software faults/failures cand remove all comms reception form a modern commercial airliner that has "3 VHF radios, 2 HF, Satcom voice, Datalink ( so ACARs and possibly CPDLC via either VHF or Satcom depending on circumstances)".
That should be a significant cause for concern.
That should be a significant cause for concern.
TBH given the redundancy I'd be really darned surprised if it was that complex a failure that actually it took out every channel of transmission, including "typing"...Might be that the balloon went up too quickly, so to speak, for the crew to be able to work their way through more obscure options such as HF, perhaps via a phone patch, or ACARS ..Be interested to hear the full story.
Last edited by wiggy; 22nd Jul 2017 at 13:28.
That said, I suspect if you had a total radio failure, no one would complain if you used a handheld. One old bag of crap I used to fly always had an Icom handheld by the co-pilots seat, as both boxes had a habit of going off just when you needed them.
If I had to take a blind guess ... I'd say it is far more likely that the problem was not with the radios themselves, but with the audio selector ... you can even route the audio to the speaker if your headsets fail ... and of course there are more than enough mic's to choose from ... however, if the ACP is hosed, all bets are off.