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Near miss with 5 airliners waiting for T/O on taxiway "C" in SFO!

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Near miss with 5 airliners waiting for T/O on taxiway "C" in SFO!

Old 3rd Aug 2017, 03:22
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Originally Posted by underfire
Yes, certainly seems UAL 1 woke them up. In the image, not only does PAL have landing lights on, so does the next ac inline
And, some pilot stuff, those may be taxi lights on one or both of the planes in line, not the much brighter landing lights. Also, does the last aircraft in line have the logo lights off perhaps?

Either way, it is customary to have those taxi and landing lights off while you are parked with the brakes set waiting in the queue for a night departure. The taxi lights would normally be on while the aircraft is moving, back off when you stop. Also, if there is an aircraft on short final, most folks turn off the taxi lights even if moving to avoid blinding the landing crew. Until it looks like they are landing on top of you that is.

Originally Posted by BluSdUp
The CVR is overwritten and the crew can not recall overflying 4 aircraft!
WOW!
Yep, act surprised.

As we discussed earlier here:

Originally Posted by Airbubba
My guess is that after midnight Friday evening you're not going to have a lot of feds in the SFO office even if a report was immediately filed. The tower probably filled out an incident report but it may not have been seen until Monday morning when the media started calling about reports of the incident based on radio transmissions monitored by 'ham radio operators'. [looks like the NTSB was actually notified on Sunday, but after the AC 759 crew was long gone - Airbubba]

United 1 may have typed up a report on the way to SIN and filed it with the company but I would be surprised if it got much attention outside the airline over the weekend.

The Air Canada 759 pilots may have called ops, grounded themselves, fessed up to a near horrific mishap and waited to be deadheaded back to base on another carrier. Or, they may have filled out a couple of CYA safety reports and operated back to YYZ over the weekend before anyone noticed.

The AC crew probably has a policy to pull the Cockpit Voice Recorder circuit breaker and make a logbook entry for maintenance to remove the CVR after a 'reportable' incident. Did they? I wouldn't be surprised if they 'forgot' to do this based on some other incidents of this type.
Originally Posted by Airbubba
From today's Mercury News article, looks like it will be a while before the video is released in the NTSB incident docket:

Conspicuously absent is any mention of the cockpit voice recorder, my guess is that the crew 'forgot' to pull the circuit breaker. An honest mistake.
Originally Posted by SeenItAll
While we don't know yet whether the CVR was preserved, not pulling the CVR circuit breaker seems often to be item #1 on the After F*ck Up checklist.
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 04:06
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Originally Posted by peekay4
Wow!

Good job this was all just "breathless nonsense" and "certainly wasn't anything close to a disaster", isn't it?
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 04:36
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
At least that finally settles the debate about which came first: the crew's decision to go around or the controller's instruction to do so.
Dave - indeed but IMHO
if anyone had listened to the ATC tape on page 1 of this thread and read that of my post just above on this matter I personally had no doubt from the tape that AC759 was already IN the go around when ATC called for him to do it - so most fortunate for all that the AC crew realised they were in the wrong place eventually and got out of there (just)

one may read my post here
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post9849003

Rog
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 06:16
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Originally Posted by rog747
Dave - indeed but IMHO
if anyone had listened to the ATC tape on page 1 of this thread and read that of my post just above on this matter I personally had no doubt from the tape that AC759 was already IN the go around when ATC called for him to do it - so most fortunate for all that the AC crew realised they were in the wrong place eventually and got out of there (just)

one may read my post here
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post9849003

Rog
Quite so, as indeed I said three weeks ago:

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
it's clear that the GA was instigated by the pilot before the ATC instruction was given. That's consistent with the ATC recording:

SFO Tower: "Air Canada, go around."

ACA759: "In the go around. Air Canada 759."
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 06:24
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Quite so, as indeed I said three weeks ago:
actually i think i do recall reading your post and thought someone else was on the same page as me (and probably the NTSB were as well)

the AC759 pilots' tone implied to me 'We are on it' and 'we are already IN the GA'

any investigator should pick that up and pick it to pieces for clarification
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 09:45
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when this first happened, some of my ac friends on fb clearly thought this was being overblown by the media. clearly it was not. This was way too close, somebody needs to figure out why.
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 11:00
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The pilot may have been in the GA, but not by much, as the GA did not begin until after the ac passed UAL 1.

Time to use radio while missing parked ac by 3 feet.....

actually, this is different from other events as the press has not rooted out every passenger to detail their harrowing near death experience.

Last edited by underfire; 3rd Aug 2017 at 11:41.
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 11:39
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CVR lost!

It is a shame the CVR can not be recovered as it is essential to understand what happened.
The crew has conveniently developed amnesia.
Thinking that 28L was still active when it was on the NOTAM and ATIS Q is to lame.
Not noticing ANY aircraft on the taxiway after passing Uniteds wopping big tail litt with logolight broadside AND the second aircraft suddenly lighting up their aiming point for touchdown , and then claim they saw no aircraft.
That is called selective memory , at best!

Another detail:
There was only one TWR controller, as per procedure. Did he let ground and Clerance Delivery still operate on Ground and then switch you to TWR frequency only when holding short of 28R? One man two frequencies.
This is done some places to avoid congestion on frequency . Is this the case here. That would explain why the second aircraft did not scream blue murder on the frequency. ( Mind you the report would have mentioned if he did call out on ground frqz I suppose )

I suspect had he not put on the landing lights, he would have been dead.
If on Twr , why did he not call out?

Situational awareness is the key , perhaps?
One to land , you are nr two holding short. Relax a bit, all is 100% safe!
To process and comprehend the unlikely picture that someone is about to land on you on your taxiway needs a bit of time and reality checks.
Especially if they did not pay attention to AC last query.

If they just clued in when United piped up and then froze in his landinglights and decided to return the favor and light up their own , then man. was it close.

Funny thing AC pilots claim they did not see this.

Again, we are going to learn a lot from this, I shure have so fare, but it would be great to have the CVR to confirm how it came so close with such an experienced crew.
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 11:42
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In postincident interviews, both incident pilots stated that, during their first approach, they believed the lighted runway on their left was 28L and that they were lined up for 28R. They also stated that they did not recall seeing aircraft on taxiway C but that something did not look right to them.


Much more detail here in the NTSB link: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...CA17IA148.aspx
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 12:02
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It is commonplace for the pilots in aircraft lined up for takeoff on a taxiway parallel to the active runway to douse their landing lights to reduce glare for the oncoming landing aircraft. Fortunately, that did not seem to be the case here, or did crews on the taxiway sense what was happening and then turn on landing lights?
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 13:06
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Originally Posted by Jet Jockey A4
I'm sure they interviewed the PAL 115 crew too... They had the best view in the house!


Jet Jockey


Not sure watching an aircraft trying to land where your parked is the Best View in my books
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 13:07
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Originally Posted by RobertS975
It is commonplace for the pilots in aircraft lined up for takeoff on a taxiway parallel to the active runway to douse their landing lights to reduce glare for the oncoming landing aircraft. Fortunately, that did not seem to be the case here, or did crews on the taxiway sense what was happening and then turn on landing lights?
From the NTSB update linked by underfire:

The flight crew of the first airplane in queue on taxiway C (UAL1) transmitted statements regarding ACA759, one of which mentioned the alignment of ACA759 with the taxiway while ACA759 was on short final (see figures 2 and 3). The flight crew of the second airplane in queue on taxiway C switched on their airplane’s landing lights as the incident airplane approached.
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 13:08
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Originally Posted by roybert
Jet Jockey


Not sure watching an aircraft trying to land where your parked is the Best View in my books
Well, I do hope you realize I was being extremely sarcastic in my comment.
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 13:10
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Originally Posted by feueraxt
From the NTSB update linked by underfire:
Quote:
The flight crew of the first airplane in queue on taxiway C (UAL1) transmitted statements regarding ACA759, one of which mentioned the alignment of ACA759 with the taxiway while ACA759 was on short final (see figures 2 and 3). The flight crew of the second airplane in queue on taxiway C switched on their airplane’s landing lights as the incident airplane approached.


Exactly... PAL 115 most likely by their action saved the day.
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 13:32
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re CVR lost: has crew conveniently developed amnesia.?

well no, but this whole incident (very serious as it was, almost a Tenerife x 2) I reckon will see findings to be mainly down to Circadian low effects and v.v time zones rosters commuting etc etc (IF we are ever told and shared this info)
This is causing fatigue, mind fixations, - ie: I'M VERY TIRED

maybe the CVR was wiped or simply got forgotten to be saved as implied by my above comment(s)

just my 2p
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 13:50
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Why didn't they bail?

Why didn't the first two planes bail off the taxiway? I can't imagine I'd just sit there and let someone land on my nose. What are your driver's instincts here? When Bob Bragg's captain saw KLM he firewalled it sideways and saved at least some of his passengers' lives. That no one even seemed to get excited, much less take some action, is as strange as the errant line-up.

-drl
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 14:04
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Originally Posted by deSitter
Why didn't the first two planes bail off the taxiway? I can't imagine I'd just sit there and let someone land on my nose. What are your driver's instincts here? When Bob Bragg's captain saw KLM he firewalled it sideways and saved at least some of his passengers' lives. That no one even seemed to get excited, much less take some action, is as strange as the errant line-up.

-drl
the front a/c United was angled holding at about 30-40 degrees ready to line up to take off (not facing AC 759 straight on) - his tail was in jeopardy to be hit but not the rest of him by the look of the photos

the 2nd a/c was PAL an A340 who was actually the first a/c to be head on to him (AC759) and frankly in the few seconds he had where would he have gone? the sea was on one side and the live runway the other?
it seem PAL did have his landing lights on so that's all he could do maybe - ghastly scenario avoided by a few seconds and feet

the United guy at the holding point certainly needs to be bought a few beers for speaking up (twice) his voice was quite excited BTW
listen to the recordings
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 14:09
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Originally Posted by rog747
re CVR lost: has crew conveniently developed amnesia.?

well no, but this whole incident (very serious as it was, almost a Tenerife x 2) I reckon will see findings to be mainly down to Circadian low effects and v.v time zones rosters commuting etc etc (IF we are ever told and shared this info)
This is causing fatigue, mind fixations, - ie: I'M VERY TIRED

maybe the CVR was wiped or simply got forgotten to be saved as implied by my above comment(s)

just my 2p
Fatigue and/or Circadian effect is perhaps the only logical explanation for this near disaster.

I'm sure the authorities will look into this when writing their report.
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 14:11
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Originally Posted by underfire
In postincident interviews, both incident pilots stated that, during their first approach, they believed the lighted runway on their left was 28L and that they were lined up for 28R. They also stated that they did not recall seeing aircraft on taxiway C but that something did not look right to them.


Much more detail here in the NTSB link: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...CA17IA148.aspx
The NTSB is treating it like an accident. The lack of the CVR is not going to let the crew have a pass; not even close.
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Old 3rd Aug 2017, 14:14
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Originally Posted by Jet Jockey A4
Fatigue and/or Circadian effect is perhaps the only logical explanation for this near disaster.

I'm sure the authorities will look into this when writing their report.
I am almost certain JJA4 -
I'm not a safety ''expert'' but since commencing my career in civil aviation in 1971 all air safety its causes and findings immensely interest and fascinate me and I made it part of my work - I worked for BMA and knew the Kegworth skipper well.

and perhaps I had a lean towards investigative work who knows.....
hey ho but i was no good at maths or physics for a degree lol
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