Near miss with 5 airliners waiting for T/O on taxiway "C" in SFO!
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"ACMS"
Many times when you are flying a Visual approach, there is a reason for this, generally it is that the ILS is unserviceable.
If the the ILS not working, or you are told to NOT use this NavAid, and make a visual approach, you would most certainly NOT tune in the ILS for any kind of reference, as it would be unreliable.
This is BASIC stuff.
And for "ratpackgreenslug" - The Airbus have NO MAGENTA LINE.
There are certain tools that could have been used, example extended centre line and various fixes, to establish current position for the approach to assist with SA.
Many times when you are flying a Visual approach, there is a reason for this, generally it is that the ILS is unserviceable.
If the the ILS not working, or you are told to NOT use this NavAid, and make a visual approach, you would most certainly NOT tune in the ILS for any kind of reference, as it would be unreliable.
This is BASIC stuff.
And for "ratpackgreenslug" - The Airbus have NO MAGENTA LINE.
There are certain tools that could have been used, example extended centre line and various fixes, to establish current position for the approach to assist with SA.
@ShyTorque - I think alot can be taken away from that and I suspect you are very close to the truth.
Also in the helicopter world, I've been 'plugged in' in the back listening to the discussion in the front about the crew deciding if they had the right visuals for a Nato T, listening to this I decided to to turn around and see what was going on poking my head through to the cockpit, both crew totally fixated on the lights outside, no one monitoring the instruments, airspeed washing off rapidly and rate of decent rapidly increasing, neither crew aware, I called the go around. The crew were getting confused with brighter lights nearby which were much clearer than the Nato T.
Slightly different scenario but I think it goes to highlight the night environment can catch you out very quickly as you become fixated.
Also in the helicopter world, I've been 'plugged in' in the back listening to the discussion in the front about the crew deciding if they had the right visuals for a Nato T, listening to this I decided to to turn around and see what was going on poking my head through to the cockpit, both crew totally fixated on the lights outside, no one monitoring the instruments, airspeed washing off rapidly and rate of decent rapidly increasing, neither crew aware, I called the go around. The crew were getting confused with brighter lights nearby which were much clearer than the Nato T.
Slightly different scenario but I think it goes to highlight the night environment can catch you out very quickly as you become fixated.
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Are you sure? The FMS Bridge Visual to 28R is an Authorization Required (AR) approach procedure but not, as far as I can see, an AR RNP (Required Navigation Performance) instrument approach.
The FMS Bridge Visual Approach 28R is a version of the Quiet Bridge Visual Approach 28R which is coded with GPS coordinates and can be included in an FMS database for approved operators. This allows the procedure to be used when the SFO VOR is out of service, and also gives ATC additional flexibility by allowing them to clear pilots direct to any of the fixes without needing to intercept the radial on the standard arrival.
Last edited by underfire; 16th Jul 2017 at 12:55.
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"ACMS"
Many times when you are flying a Visual approach, there is a reason for this, generally it is that the ILS is unserviceable.
If the the ILS not working, or you are told to NOT use this NavAid, and make a visual approach, you would most certainly NOT tune in the ILS for any kind of reference, as it would be unreliable.
This is BASIC stuff.
And for "ratpackgreenslug" - The Airbus have NO MAGENTA LINE.
There are certain tools that could have been used, example extended centre line and various fixes, to establish current position for the approach to assist with SA.
Many times when you are flying a Visual approach, there is a reason for this, generally it is that the ILS is unserviceable.
If the the ILS not working, or you are told to NOT use this NavAid, and make a visual approach, you would most certainly NOT tune in the ILS for any kind of reference, as it would be unreliable.
This is BASIC stuff.
And for "ratpackgreenslug" - The Airbus have NO MAGENTA LINE.
There are certain tools that could have been used, example extended centre line and various fixes, to establish current position for the approach to assist with SA.
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Technically, these RNAV visual approaches are not "AR' in the sense that RNAV RNP AR or CAT II or III ILS approaches are. Everyone has the charts for those AR approaches, but in the case of RNP AR they won't be in the FMS database unless qualified.
With these RNAV visuals neither the chart nor the database procedure are available publicly. But, nowhere on the chart does it state "authorization required," per se. At least it doesn't on the SFO charts for one major carrier that I have seen.
Interestingly, the "FMS Bridge Visual Rwy 28R" has an IFR missed approach procedure, which is contrary to the usual FAA policy for visual approaches.
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In the A320 the display of ILS GS and LOC symbology on the PFD is incompatible with using the autoflight system to fly a non-precison approach. The ILS may be hard-tuned but the crew will not see the data unless they select the LS pushbutton or switch the Nav Display over to ROSE LS mode. If they do press the LS pushbutton after loading an approach with vertical guidance, they will get a flashing amber V/DEV message on the PFD to highlight the incompatible selection. I do not have experience of any 'FMS coded' visual approaches (RNAV visuals in other parlance?) but I expect that the FMGS behaviour is the same.
In the case of a classic visual approach, with just the runway selected in the FMGS, the ILS will have auto-tuned (the FMGS will know that it is an ILS runway) and the data can be displayed on the PFD without any advisory messages; the selections are compatible. However, by coding the visual approach trajectory into the FMGS it has effectively been transformed into a non-precison approach, and the selection of supporting ILS information is not as straightforward.
Bearing in mind the above information, just try writing a procedure to turn what may sometimes be a valid technique into a SOP. You would have to decide at what point it would be safe for the crew to start making fundamental changes to their EFIS set-up in order to discard the FMGS guidance and switch to ILS data. You would also need to consider if your procedure is robust enough to cope with the different cases of a non-ILS runway, ILS not available and a full-up ILS.
I also think it is worth pointing-out that hard-tuning the ILS requires manual entry of data from a different approach and introduces the chance of incorrect data entry. What if the FMS Quiet Bridge approach to 28R had been selected, but going to a different plate to obtain the ILS ident resulted in the tuning of the ILS for 28L? The technique is valid, but it is not a completely threat/error free.
Perhaps this particular occurence has found the flaw in FMS coded visual approaches? Rather than just censure the crew, the industry needs to look at what lessons we can all learn from this. Would the inclusion of runway lighting configuration on the ATIS at airports with close parallel runways be worthwhile?
In the case of a classic visual approach, with just the runway selected in the FMGS, the ILS will have auto-tuned (the FMGS will know that it is an ILS runway) and the data can be displayed on the PFD without any advisory messages; the selections are compatible. However, by coding the visual approach trajectory into the FMGS it has effectively been transformed into a non-precison approach, and the selection of supporting ILS information is not as straightforward.
Bearing in mind the above information, just try writing a procedure to turn what may sometimes be a valid technique into a SOP. You would have to decide at what point it would be safe for the crew to start making fundamental changes to their EFIS set-up in order to discard the FMGS guidance and switch to ILS data. You would also need to consider if your procedure is robust enough to cope with the different cases of a non-ILS runway, ILS not available and a full-up ILS.
I also think it is worth pointing-out that hard-tuning the ILS requires manual entry of data from a different approach and introduces the chance of incorrect data entry. What if the FMS Quiet Bridge approach to 28R had been selected, but going to a different plate to obtain the ILS ident resulted in the tuning of the ILS for 28L? The technique is valid, but it is not a completely threat/error free.
Perhaps this particular occurence has found the flaw in FMS coded visual approaches? Rather than just censure the crew, the industry needs to look at what lessons we can all learn from this. Would the inclusion of runway lighting configuration on the ATIS at airports with close parallel runways be worthwhile?
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I hadn't previously heard the term "FMS Approach" but I am familiar with "RNAV Visual Approach," which are issued only to air carriers.
The waypoints are at setpdown fix locations, with at/abv designators, which appears to add a quasi vnav to the RNAV approach.
With RNAV visuals, the FMS auto computes a straignt line VNAV path. I think that the legs may too short and outside of the FMS ability, especially the dogleg at ALPHI for the FMS to keep up with a VNAV solution. Perhaps this is why it is considered a tailored approach requiring approval to use?
I have also encountered differences in the ac/FMS performance with AT/ABV altitudes on waypoints on final. Another good reason for the tailored designation on the procedure.
I seem to remember in AUS, the international crews are/were not authorized to use the RNAV visuals.
Last edited by underfire; 16th Jul 2017 at 14:35.
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In the A320 the display of ILS GS and LOC symbology on the PFD is incompatible with using the autoflight system to fly a non-precison approach. The ILS may be hard-tuned but the crew will not see the data unless they select the LS pushbutton or switch the Nav Display over to ROSE LS mode. If they do press the LS pushbutton after loading an approach with vertical guidance, they will get a flashing amber V/DEV message on the PFD to highlight the incompatible selection. I do not have experience of any 'FMS coded' visual approaches (RNAV visuals in other parlance?) but I expect that the FMGS behaviour is the same.
In the case of a classic visual approach, with just the runway selected in the FMGS, the ILS will have auto-tuned (the FMGS will know that it is an ILS runway) and the data can be displayed on the PFD without any advisory messages; the selections are compatible. However, by coding the visual approach trajectory into the FMGS it has effectively been transformed into a non-precison approach, and the selection of supporting ILS information is not as straightforward.
Bearing in mind the above information, just try writing a procedure to turn what may sometimes be a valid technique into a SOP. You would have to decide at what point it would be safe for the crew to start making fundamental changes to their EFIS set-up in order to discard the FMGS guidance and switch to ILS data. You would also need to consider if your procedure is robust enough to cope with the different cases of a non-ILS runway, ILS not available and a full-up ILS.
I also think it is worth pointing-out that hard-tuning the ILS requires manual entry of data from a different approach and introduces the chance of incorrect data entry. What if the FMS Quiet Bridge approach to 28R had been selected, but going to a different plate to obtain the ILS ident resulted in the tuning of the ILS for 28L? The technique is valid, but it is not a completely threat/error free.
Perhaps this particular occurence has found the flaw in FMS coded visual approaches? Rather than just censure the crew, the industry needs to look at what lessons we can all learn from this. Would the inclusion of runway lighting configuration on the ATIS at airports with close parallel runways be worthwhile?
In the case of a classic visual approach, with just the runway selected in the FMGS, the ILS will have auto-tuned (the FMGS will know that it is an ILS runway) and the data can be displayed on the PFD without any advisory messages; the selections are compatible. However, by coding the visual approach trajectory into the FMGS it has effectively been transformed into a non-precison approach, and the selection of supporting ILS information is not as straightforward.
Bearing in mind the above information, just try writing a procedure to turn what may sometimes be a valid technique into a SOP. You would have to decide at what point it would be safe for the crew to start making fundamental changes to their EFIS set-up in order to discard the FMGS guidance and switch to ILS data. You would also need to consider if your procedure is robust enough to cope with the different cases of a non-ILS runway, ILS not available and a full-up ILS.
I also think it is worth pointing-out that hard-tuning the ILS requires manual entry of data from a different approach and introduces the chance of incorrect data entry. What if the FMS Quiet Bridge approach to 28R had been selected, but going to a different plate to obtain the ILS ident resulted in the tuning of the ILS for 28L? The technique is valid, but it is not a completely threat/error free.
Perhaps this particular occurence has found the flaw in FMS coded visual approaches? Rather than just censure the crew, the industry needs to look at what lessons we can all learn from this. Would the inclusion of runway lighting configuration on the ATIS at airports with close parallel runways be worthwhile?
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Absolutely! I'm confident the NTSB and their Canadian counterpart will be looking looking quite closely at all aspect of these database FMS "visual" procedures.
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Thinking about your comment, perhaps Air Canada wasn't authorized the FMS Visual. If so, seems like they would have been flying the plain vanilla Quiet Bridge 28R Visual.
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I only looked at the tower transcript. If they were cleared for the FMS Visual, in some ways that deepens the mystery.
Interesting, when you listen (to the recording in post #4 of this thread) you hear different requests coming in.
at 1430 you have a delta request 28R visual;
at 1705 someone requests FMS 28R, bridge visual;
at 1942, a delta asks for RNAV bridge visual 28R;
at 2110, you have air canada 759 request FMS bridge visual 28R.
Interestingly, the "FMS Bridge Visual Rwy 28R" has an IFR missed approach procedure, which is contrary to the usual FAA policy for visual approaches.
TLV and BOD have published missed approaches on their RNAV visuals.
Last edited by underfire; 16th Jul 2017 at 18:44.
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From ICAO guidance:
An RNAV Visual Approach is comprised of a flight path requiring an FMS and use of ground based, space based or onboard navigation aids, followed by a visual track to landing.
These are very specific procedures which require the operator to obtain Civil Aviation Authority approval before its pilots can fly an RNAV Visual.
■Your airline is required to be CAA approved for RNAV Visual approaches. Note that it is possible for an airline to be authorized to fly RNAV approaches, but not authorized to fly RNAV Visual approaches.
■ If your airline is not approved, you should not have the RNAV Visual charts, however, reports indicate that some crews have had these approaches included in their onboard chart library even though neither they nor their airline was authorized.
From FAA:
In 2010 the FAA issued Order 8260.55 allowing the development of RNAV Visual Flight Procedures (RVFPs) that capitalize on the capabilities of RNAV systems to provide repeatable flight paths, reduce pilot-controller communications and enhance safety through the use of vertical guidance during visual approaches. These RVFPs are not “Public” procedures. Instead, they are approved by a process similar to “Special” IFPs and are only available to part 121 and part 135 operators through OpSpec approval.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...er/8260.55.pdf
Yes, it does deepen the mystery...
Yes, they may be. As noted, an airline can be approved, but the crew must also be appoved to use them.
An RNAV Visual Approach is comprised of a flight path requiring an FMS and use of ground based, space based or onboard navigation aids, followed by a visual track to landing.
These are very specific procedures which require the operator to obtain Civil Aviation Authority approval before its pilots can fly an RNAV Visual.
■Your airline is required to be CAA approved for RNAV Visual approaches. Note that it is possible for an airline to be authorized to fly RNAV approaches, but not authorized to fly RNAV Visual approaches.
■ If your airline is not approved, you should not have the RNAV Visual charts, however, reports indicate that some crews have had these approaches included in their onboard chart library even though neither they nor their airline was authorized.
From FAA:
In 2010 the FAA issued Order 8260.55 allowing the development of RNAV Visual Flight Procedures (RVFPs) that capitalize on the capabilities of RNAV systems to provide repeatable flight paths, reduce pilot-controller communications and enhance safety through the use of vertical guidance during visual approaches. These RVFPs are not “Public” procedures. Instead, they are approved by a process similar to “Special” IFPs and are only available to part 121 and part 135 operators through OpSpec approval.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...er/8260.55.pdf
Yes, it does deepen the mystery...
both are the FMGS database
Last edited by underfire; 16th Jul 2017 at 18:41.
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terpster, a few years ago, the FAA was looking at RNP AR to visual approach procedure concepts with Naverus. Are you aware if they were working on this concept with anyone else? Naverus was looking at this to get below the 250 HAT.
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As the FAA document Special Area Navigation Visual Flight Procedures you cited in your previous post says:
RNAV Equipment Requirements and Procedure Flyability. Only RNAV systems compliant with AC 90-100, using distance measuring equipment (DME)/DME/Inertial Reference Unit (IRU) and/or global positioning system (GPS) sensor inputs, are acceptable for use on an RVFP.
I listened to the recording, they specifically asked for FMS Bridge vsual 28R, and were cleared to land.
Interesting, when you listen (to the recording in post #4 of this thread) you hear different requests coming in.
at 1430 you have a delta request 28R visual;
at 1705 someone requests FMS 28R, bridge visual;
at 1942, a delta asks for RNAV bridge visual 28R;
at 2110, you have air canada 759 request FMS bridge visual 28R.
Interesting, when you listen (to the recording in post #4 of this thread) you hear different requests coming in.
at 1430 you have a delta request 28R visual;
at 1705 someone requests FMS 28R, bridge visual;
at 1942, a delta asks for RNAV bridge visual 28R;
at 2110, you have air canada 759 request FMS bridge visual 28R.
They were already cleared for that approach by the previous controller.
As I posted earlier:
You can hear AC 759 cleared for the FMS Bridge Visual at about 15:45 into this approach control clip (the time seems to be different depending on the .mp3 player used):
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ks...2017-0630Z.mp3
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ks...2017-0630Z.mp3
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Perhaps this particular occurence has found the flaw in FMS coded visual approaches? Rather than just censure the crew, the industry needs to look at what lessons we can all learn from this. Would the inclusion of runway lighting configuration on the ATIS at airports with close parallel runways be worthwhile?
It goes against all instincts to deliberately hide a piece of potentially extremely valuable information, especially at night or in marginal weather.
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MITRE has been looking at RNP AR to LPV. That's been going on for several years.
Originally Posted by underfire View Post
terpster, a few years ago, the FAA was looking at RNP AR to visual approach procedure concepts with Naverus. Are you aware if they were working on this concept with anyone else? Naverus was looking at this to get below the 250 HAT.
I haven't heard of that. If could still be in-house though. That would require some changes to criteria.
MITRE has been looking at RNP AR to LPV. That's been going on for several years.
terpster, a few years ago, the FAA was looking at RNP AR to visual approach procedure concepts with Naverus. Are you aware if they were working on this concept with anyone else? Naverus was looking at this to get below the 250 HAT.
I haven't heard of that. If could still be in-house though. That would require some changes to criteria.
MITRE has been looking at RNP AR to LPV. That's been going on for several years.
Naverus is no more, they were bought out a few years ago by General Electric, Flight Effeciency services is the new name under GE.
MITRE for lack of a better term has licensing authority over FAA software called TARGETS that is the basis for building RVFPS. This is often issued to airlines who build them for their needs, SWA being one of the more aggressive ones.