Luckily the dead engine wasn't dead after all.
Well you can usually go partway just by retarding throttles and observing the effects on each engine at a time. The only rush point would be if EGT was overlimits and did not respond to a throttle reduction.
But like every new report on this site, I wasn't there so I have no need to critizize
But like every new report on this site, I wasn't there so I have no need to critizize
This is a classic example of where a little knowledge is very dangerous. If "rottenray" really believes that the Kegworth was almost understandable, based on the flawed understanding of the pneumatic system by the pilots, then I think he is sadly mistaken. Kegworth need not have happened. Time taken to properly identify the defective engine, based on the indications presented, would/should have prevented the Kegworth accident.
Have I missed the post (with all these wonderful ways of determining a failed engine) of "Dead foot, dead engine" ??
Tootle pip!!
PS: I have read the Kegworth report, (and I used to work for BMA) and I do know that other actions disguised/didn't help the proper identification of the failed engine.
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: singapore
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a classic example of where a little knowledge is very dangerous. If "rottenray" really believes that the Kegworth was almost understandable, based on the flawed understanding of the pneumatic system by the pilots, then I think he is sadly mistaken. Kegworth need not have happened. Time taken to properly identify the defective engine, based on the indications presented, would/should have prevented the Kegworth accident.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: what U.S. calls Žold EuropeŽ
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the next generation of pilots
Nothing is as clear to understand as tactile indications.
Maybe some remaining mis-trim (low enough to prevent loss of control, high enough to be clearly felt by the pilot) or artificial feel might be the way to go ?
Or having a "throtlle shaker" which makes the power lever vibrate with the vibration indication? (Healthy engine lever feels fine, failed engine lever vibrates)
There is a lot aircraft designers could do to support pilots, which due to their human nature do make mistakes, even more if you automate many items and take the pilot out of the loop.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,509
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the next generation of rules and aircraft it may be wort rethinking the auto-rudder-trim vs. dead foot - dead engine philosophy...
Nothing is as clear to understand as tactile indications.
Maybe some remaining mis-trim (low enough to prevent loss of control, high enough to be clearly felt by the pilot) or artificial feel might be the way to go ?
Or having a "throtlle shaker" which makes the power lever vibrate with the vibration indication? (Healthy engine lever feels fine, failed engine lever vibrates)
There is a lot aircraft designers could do to support pilots, which due to their human nature do make mistakes, even more if you automate many items and take the pilot out of the loop.
Nothing is as clear to understand as tactile indications.
Maybe some remaining mis-trim (low enough to prevent loss of control, high enough to be clearly felt by the pilot) or artificial feel might be the way to go ?
Or having a "throtlle shaker" which makes the power lever vibrate with the vibration indication? (Healthy engine lever feels fine, failed engine lever vibrates)
There is a lot aircraft designers could do to support pilots, which due to their human nature do make mistakes, even more if you automate many items and take the pilot out of the loop.
I'm just puzzled why they set the operating engine to idle in the attempt to restart the good engine.
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That didn't even come into the picture in the Sim where one engine caught fire on takeoff and after firing both bottles the PNF ran the checklist and at the end the checklist called to switch off the affected engine so the PNF reached for the switch and as he did so the PF let out a yell but it was too late and a glider we became at 2k feet. It seems that the challenge action at the front of a drill works OK by rote but when the action.is called for a minute or two later it didn't have a challenge
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Qwerty
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From aviation herald
"was in the takeoff roll at about 115 KIAS out of Delhi's runway 09 when a bird struck the right hand engine (CFM56) causing vibrations and abnormal sounds. The crew continued takeoff"
115 KIAS and they continued, is that not way below V1 with 158 pax on board?
"was in the takeoff roll at about 115 KIAS out of Delhi's runway 09 when a bird struck the right hand engine (CFM56) causing vibrations and abnormal sounds. The crew continued takeoff"
115 KIAS and they continued, is that not way below V1 with 158 pax on board?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: home
Posts: 1,565
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I like the sound of a throttle shaker to indicate which engine has high vibs
I think we would be better to ensure we put people into the flight deck with better non-technical skills and who can read a basic instrument display. Compared to some of the old steam driven engine instrument displays the Airbus is a doddle.
During take-off roll on Runway 09 at around 115 knots IAS, aircraft encountered bird strike on Engine # 2. Both crew noticed abnormal sound and vibrations but PIC decided to continue for take-off probably wanting to investigate the problem after getting airborne.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Spain and Gibraltar
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Four throttle levers.... Eeny, meeny, miny, moe that one's vibrating let it go. Not viable!
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Not At Home
Posts: 2,448
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This hasn't been mentioned. No excuse but also shows this wasn't a beautiful smooth day like we often practice in the sim..
As per the occurrence report, the weather, after take-off, was very turbulent and the autopilot was not holding. Autopilot was disengaged at 05:41:50 hrs and several times from 05:45:43 hrs to 05:46:44 hrs.
A terrible display of poor airmanship. Especially the alpha floor part. Lucky they were in a bus forcing alpha floor protection on them, kept them from becoming another statistic. It is astounding who all is issued with a license to be up front these days. Training standards?
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dortmund
Age: 54
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Volume
Or having a "throtlle shaker" which makes the power lever vibrate with the vibration indication? (Healthy engine lever feels fine, failed engine lever vibrates)
Airbus tried hard to do the right thing, putting all the indications for the left engine in the left column and those for the right engine in the right column. Nevertheless the FO got confused, and page 37 in the report is a good illustration of what he thought he saw and why.
I'm surprised that among the recommendations in the report there is none for Airbus to improve that part of the engine display. One could easily give the text column a better symmetry by putting the "VIB" above the N1/N2 rather than next to it. And, like zahnpastaesser said, maybe the terms N1/N2 should better be avoided in this context. LP/HP or FAN/CORE would be obvious alternatives.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wiltshire U.K.
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am still surprised that, under normal conditions, but particularly after suffering an engine failure, there is no operating engine(s) proving check, at a safe height above the ground, just as you would check your response to flight controls had any control malfunction occurred. While this would not have helped in this case, it certainly would in others, perhaps Kegworth, or the BA777 at LHR. It may be too late if you leave it until approach checks. Or perhaps there is such a check nowadays?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: swindon
Age: 44
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airbus tried hard to do the right thing, putting all the indications for the left engine in the left column and those for the right engine in the right column. Nevertheless the FO got confused, and page 37 in the report is a good illustration of what he thought he saw and why.
I'm surprised that among the recommendations in the report there is none for Airbus to improve that part of the engine display. One could easily give the text column a better symmetry by putting the "VIB" above the N1/N2 rather than next to it. And, like zahnpastaesser said, maybe the terms N1/N2 should better be avoided in this context. LP/HP or FAN/CORE would be obvious alternatives.
I'm surprised that among the recommendations in the report there is none for Airbus to improve that part of the engine display. One could easily give the text column a better symmetry by putting the "VIB" above the N1/N2 rather than next to it. And, like zahnpastaesser said, maybe the terms N1/N2 should better be avoided in this context. LP/HP or FAN/CORE would be obvious alternatives.
The bus gauge is awfully designed. However, when you fly the thing day in and day out there is an expectation you understand it!
Last edited by smala01; 9th Feb 2019 at 13:03.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: home
Posts: 1,565
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nope it is not an awful design, but someone found a way to misunderstand it. Many, many, many pilots don’t have a problem with the Airbus instrument design but if you keep putting the lowest common denominators into the flight deck you will find someone who does.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wiltshire U.K.
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts