Air France high speed RTO due to missing baggage
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Where is it okay for ATC to issue such urgent instructions during takeoff roll?
It doesn't compute for me.
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I was told to stop by ATC at BIKF years ago, after we started the TO. Fortunately this was only at about 75 kts.
My first concern was that they had screwed up and launched someone off the cross runway as well, but in fact it had come to light that we had a bag on board whose passenger wasn't .
My first concern was that they had screwed up and launched someone off the cross runway as well, but in fact it had come to light that we had a bag on board whose passenger wasn't .
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Further to my earlier post, between 80 knots and V1, "anything that would make the aircraft unable to fly". If ATC have knowledge of such a thing, and I'm not talking about smoke from a tyre, but more likely a runway incursion, then yes, "Stop" is valid.
Expanding my previous:
"Basair 13, aircraft on the go-around right above you - stop!" If below V1 I'd stop; if over, I'd continue, keep it low and turn away.
"Basair 13, stop!" Depending upon speed I'd probably continue.
Most runway incursions would be clear to you anyway.
"Basair 13, aircraft on the go-around right above you - stop!" If below V1 I'd stop; if over, I'd continue, keep it low and turn away.
"Basair 13, stop!" Depending upon speed I'd probably continue.
Most runway incursions would be clear to you anyway.
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Where "pre V1" would it be okay?
Where is it okay for ATC to issue such urgent instructions during takeoff roll?
It doesn't compute for me.
Where is it okay for ATC to issue such urgent instructions during takeoff roll?
It doesn't compute for me.
MP,
That wasn't remotely close to being a good reason to tell you to stop.
Controllers should only transmit such a request with an aircraft at high speed if
there is an immediate threat to the aircraft, a runway incursion being one
of the few good reasons.
If they notice something wrong with your aircraft they should call out the problem
clearly, the reject / continue decision always belongs with the Captain.
That wasn't remotely close to being a good reason to tell you to stop.
Controllers should only transmit such a request with an aircraft at high speed if
there is an immediate threat to the aircraft, a runway incursion being one
of the few good reasons.
If they notice something wrong with your aircraft they should call out the problem
clearly, the reject / continue decision always belongs with the Captain.
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Yes, in first world. I don't know Martinique. Is it the sort of murky place where a Big Man (political, military, airline, whatever) can shout "stop that plane!" – even for a frivolous reason such as, maybe, something left behind – and be obeyed without question down a hierarchy of frightened officials and up to the man in the tower, who can see that the aircraft is rolling and has a split second to decide whether to defy the Big Man's order at some risk to himself, or effectively to pass the buck to the pilots?
Here is a similar case, from AvHerald
Would you go around ?
A TAP Portugal Airbus A319-100, registration CS-TTI performing flight TP-558 from Lisbon (Portugal) to Munich (Germany), was on final approach to Munich's runway 26L when the crew reported a nose wheel steering problem. In response tower instructed the aircraft to go around, the aircraft climbed to 5000 feet and positioned for another approach. Tower advised emergency services had been put on stand by by the tower, the crew advised that they were able to resolve the problem and expected normal operations. The aircraft landed safely on runway 26L about 18 minutes after the go around and taxied to the apron with emergency services in trail.
Surely an ATCO is exactly that an ATCo whether on ground or in the air a pilot would be taking an immense legal risk by ignoring what that say since it is an instruction.
I know TCAS is in the picture now but not for light aircraft so would some of the people here who say well i wouldn't listen to the ATCo ignore a call of ABC 123 immediate right turn to XXX degrees traffic just say -well I can't see anyone so Ill just carry on.
As has been proven many times flight deck windows do not give the greatest view in the world and on take off I imagine one set of eyes are focussed inside and the others s very much straight down the runway ahead and have nothing like the view from the tower of potential hazards just outside the pilots field of vision.
I kow RTOs are tricky at high speed but as a view from the back I would prefer to stop with smoking brakes even evacuation than have the pilot press on into
Animals running onto runway
vehicles on runway
helicopters wandering off an orbit near the flight path
erring light aircraft
flocks of big birds
drone incursions
etc etc
I know TCAS is in the picture now but not for light aircraft so would some of the people here who say well i wouldn't listen to the ATCo ignore a call of ABC 123 immediate right turn to XXX degrees traffic just say -well I can't see anyone so Ill just carry on.
As has been proven many times flight deck windows do not give the greatest view in the world and on take off I imagine one set of eyes are focussed inside and the others s very much straight down the runway ahead and have nothing like the view from the tower of potential hazards just outside the pilots field of vision.
I kow RTOs are tricky at high speed but as a view from the back I would prefer to stop with smoking brakes even evacuation than have the pilot press on into
Animals running onto runway
vehicles on runway
helicopters wandering off an orbit near the flight path
erring light aircraft
flocks of big birds
drone incursions
etc etc
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The cancellation of a take-off clearance after an aircraft has commenced its take-off roll should only occur when the aircraft will be in serious and imminent danger should it continue. Controllers should be aware of the potential for an aircraft to overrun the end of the runway if the take-off is abandoned at a late stage; this is particularly so with large aircraft or those operating close to their performance limit, such as at maximum take-off mass, in high ambient temperatures or when the runway braking action may be adversely affected. Because of this risk, even if a take-off clearance is cancelled, the commander of the aircraft may consider it safer to continue the take- off than to attempt to stop the aircraft.
As the aircraft accelerates, the risks associated with abandoning the take-off increase significantly. For modern jet aircraft, at speeds above 80kt flight deck procedures balance the seriousness of a failure with the increased risk associated with rejecting the takeoff. For example, many system warnings and cautions on the flight deck may be inhibited during the take-off roll, and between 80kt and V1 most aircraft operators define a limited number of emergency conditions in which the take-off will be rejected. Consequently, at speeds above 80kt, the take-off clearance should normally only be cancelled if there is a serious risk of collision should the aircraft continue its take-off, or if substantial debris is observed or reported on the runway in a location likely to result in damage to the aircraft.
The critical speed will be dependent on the aircraft type and configuration, environmental conditions and a range of other factors but, as a general rule, for modern jet aircraft, it will be in the region of 80kt airspeed.
The typical distance at which a jet aircraft reaches 80kt is approximately 300m from the point at which the take-off roll is commenced. The unit MATS Part 2 shall contain further guidance on the likely position on the runway at which those aircraft types commonly using the aerodrome typically reach 80kt.
16.5 Controllers should also be aware of the possibility that an aircraft that abandons its take- off may suffer overheated brakes or another abnormal situation and should be prepared to declare the appropriate category of emergency or to provide other suitable assistance.
Apologies for the cut and paste in an attempt to clear muddied waters
As the aircraft accelerates, the risks associated with abandoning the take-off increase significantly. For modern jet aircraft, at speeds above 80kt flight deck procedures balance the seriousness of a failure with the increased risk associated with rejecting the takeoff. For example, many system warnings and cautions on the flight deck may be inhibited during the take-off roll, and between 80kt and V1 most aircraft operators define a limited number of emergency conditions in which the take-off will be rejected. Consequently, at speeds above 80kt, the take-off clearance should normally only be cancelled if there is a serious risk of collision should the aircraft continue its take-off, or if substantial debris is observed or reported on the runway in a location likely to result in damage to the aircraft.
The critical speed will be dependent on the aircraft type and configuration, environmental conditions and a range of other factors but, as a general rule, for modern jet aircraft, it will be in the region of 80kt airspeed.
The typical distance at which a jet aircraft reaches 80kt is approximately 300m from the point at which the take-off roll is commenced. The unit MATS Part 2 shall contain further guidance on the likely position on the runway at which those aircraft types commonly using the aerodrome typically reach 80kt.
16.5 Controllers should also be aware of the possibility that an aircraft that abandons its take- off may suffer overheated brakes or another abnormal situation and should be prepared to declare the appropriate category of emergency or to provide other suitable assistance.
Apologies for the cut and paste in an attempt to clear muddied waters
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I don't think the most important question has been answered here.
How many of you would perform a high speed reject if requested by ATC
without a really good reason ?
And why on earth did the controller make that request at that moment
even if requested by company operations ?
I doubt i'd be stopping even if before V1.
How many of you would perform a high speed reject if requested by ATC
without a really good reason ?
And why on earth did the controller make that request at that moment
even if requested by company operations ?
I doubt i'd be stopping even if before V1.
depending on the runway, I would, since I would not know WHY ATC wanted the stop. no doubt. unless I was in a dc 9 -30 on a hot day in memphis.
on those hot days, in that underpowered 9, the closer we got to lift-off, the more I felt the fragility of life. kudos to pratt and whitney.
in the heavier than dc-10 class: there always seemed plenty of get up and go. AS I think it over, one time just b4 the onset of dawn in Natchez Mississippi, we rotated just over a deer that stood frozen on the runway and I was told someone once did the same over a person out for a pre dawn stroll...in a WW2 class Martin 404. one never when knew when THOSE old Pratt and whitneys would give out (in the late 60's. everyone knew they were never far from it).
Last edited by costalpilot; 23rd Apr 2017 at 17:17. Reason: add
I understood it that way, they had a NLG steering fault but decided to land without the brigade.
The tower though didn't like it and wanted the brigade on standby before they land. Therefore instructed to go around...
Maybe I should alter my question to: Do you think it was appropiate to order a go around ?
The tower though didn't like it and wanted the brigade on standby before they land. Therefore instructed to go around...
Maybe I should alter my question to: Do you think it was appropiate to order a go around ?
Last edited by gearlever; 23rd Apr 2017 at 17:48. Reason: Additional words
The controller would use the aircraft call sign. However, it could of course be clipped or stepped on.
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The analogy of an ATC instruction to go-around to a takeoff would be, "Acme 123, cancel takeoff clearance, remain in position (or taxi clear of the runway at taxiway Alpha.)"
