USA Today: UA forcibly remove random pax from flight
Given some previous debate there's a danger the media are going to start muddying the waters with the general public again with the likes of the above because to many "staff travel" means airline staff not working and off on holiday or "commuting" to/from work. The UK's Guardian is carrying similar saying "off duty" staff will have to be confirmed.
I'm assuming the actual process UA are introducing now is that Duty staff will be confirmed an hour out. TBH I'm surprised UA haven't been at least blocking seats for "must travel" staff an hour out or more before this incident - if not they've been holding themselves hostage to fortune.
I'm assuming the actual process UA are introducing now is that Duty staff will be confirmed an hour out. TBH I'm surprised UA haven't been at least blocking seats for "must travel" staff an hour out or more before this incident - if not they've been holding themselves hostage to fortune.
Last edited by wiggy; 17th Apr 2017 at 06:45.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,821
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sure some Big Cheese will eventually ask the airlines to quantify ($) the effect of removing the ability to overbook. If the number presented is anything less than a sizeable slice of shareholder profit, I suspect the rules may be changed.
United have now modified their booking policy re staff travel, saying they will have to be confirmed, with seats allocated, at least one hour before a flight's departure.
United Airlines changes policy after 'horrific' passenger ordeal - BBC News
United Airlines changes policy after 'horrific' passenger ordeal - BBC News
Reported on BBC breakfast news this morning. Seems clear that various news outlets outside the USA are going to continue following this story. Every time this story comes up so does a brief excerpt of the video giving United more unwelcome publicity.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
United have now modified their booking policy re staff travel, saying they will have to be confirmed, with seats allocated, at least one hour before a flight's departure.
United Airlines changes policy after 'horrific' passenger ordeal - BBC News
United Airlines changes policy after 'horrific' passenger ordeal - BBC News
As shown here crew don't meet the legal definition of confirmed reserved seating, even if the airline has reserved a seat for them. So passengers still can't be denied boarding in favour of crew.
Of course knowing about the problem in advance does allow the gate crew more time to try and find a solution such as a pax voluntary giving up their seat.
Definitions from CFR 250
Confirmed reserved space means space on a specific date and on a specific flight and class of service of a carrier which has been requested by a passenger, including a passenger with a “zero fare ticket,” and which the carrier or its agent has verified, by appropriate notation on the ticket or in any other manner provided therefore by the carrier, as being reserved for the accommodation of the passenger.
Zero fare ticket means a ticket acquired without a substantial monetary payment such as by using frequent flyer miles or vouchers, or a consolidator ticket obtained after a monetary payment that does not show a fare amount on the ticket. A zero fare ticket does not include free or reduced rate air transportation provided to airline employees and guests.
United have now modified their booking policy re staff travel, saying they will have to be confirmed, with seats allocated, at least one hour before a flight's departure.
United Airlines changes policy after 'horrific' passenger ordeal - BBC News
United Airlines changes policy after 'horrific' passenger ordeal - BBC News
But what a poor decision. It seems that pax with confirmed reservations on a full flight will STILL be bumped by the Ops department seeking cheap crewing logistics. It's just that they will now be bumped at the gate rather than when sat on board, and all the media comments about "confirmed" reservations being in truth a lottery still apply. So Dr Dao would still be arbitrarily selected by the gate agent not to travel. And if he objects there about this, then the agent will doubtless STILL send for the "law enforcement", seeing as they are only disallowed now to pull someone from inside the aircraft. Presumably the same thugs will be sent as before, with the same attitudes, and thus Dr Dao will STILL get beaten up and dragged away from the counter by the feet,
Great customer-primacy decision Munoz. Only took you a week to think this one up.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cornwall UK
Age: 79
Posts: 507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"If airlines can't get passengers to switch of their own volition, they're allowed to bump fliers involuntarily.In 2015, 46,000 travelers were involuntarily bumped from flights, according to data from the Department of Transportation"...from a CNN piece on the incident
I thought the economist Julian Simon's theory of sealed bids at the gate by shiny, happy overbooked passengers for compensation was supposed to completely eliminate involuntary bumping. Sounds like the concept has been watered down(vouchers!!?), misapplied and has led to sloppy thinking.
Maybe new technology (internet, mobile phones) could enable a genuine sealed bidding system with instant genuine money payout by Paypal, but it needs to be done strictly at the gate not on the plane! (Pilots and Flight Attendant unions should be banning any onboard haggling) And airlines/regulators need to face the possibility that just occasionally the system won't generate volunteers...so what then?
I thought the economist Julian Simon's theory of sealed bids at the gate by shiny, happy overbooked passengers for compensation was supposed to completely eliminate involuntary bumping. Sounds like the concept has been watered down(vouchers!!?), misapplied and has led to sloppy thinking.
Maybe new technology (internet, mobile phones) could enable a genuine sealed bidding system with instant genuine money payout by Paypal, but it needs to be done strictly at the gate not on the plane! (Pilots and Flight Attendant unions should be banning any onboard haggling) And airlines/regulators need to face the possibility that just occasionally the system won't generate volunteers...so what then?
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: England
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the age of the 24-hour news cycle, I doubt UA will "suffer" much at all. This will be forgotten by tomorrow night at the latest replaced by Ms Kardashian's ass or something similarly extraordinarily important, and no, I don't work for UA (although, in the interest of full disclosure, I did use to fly for the "regional partner" in question).
Airlines have done much worse things...
Airlines have done much worse things...
Even now, I think we are only at 'the end of the beginning'. The politicians have yet to weigh in fully. Do not doubt they will go for the airlines because it is an easy win open goal. consider
1. Most Senate Committee members travel by air, so will have personal experience of 'US customer service';
2. Some will be facing re-election shortly and being seen to be tough on unfair airlines is easy and has no taxpayer cost;
3. The performance of the various airline parties to date has been pretty poor - so unless they up their game they will be seen as an easy mark.
While all the evidence is yet to emerge, I suspect when it does it will it will not make pretty reading. The damage to UA will not come from the lawsuit but the probability that regulation will change.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
United ORD Pax Incident Police Report Says Passenger Fought with Officers
From the LA Times:
Police report says passenger fought with officers before he was pulled from United flight - LA Times
The police report documents are here:
http://documents.latimes.com/inciden...united-flight/
Police report says passenger fought with officers before he was pulled from United flight
Hugo Martin Contact Reporter
April 24, 2017
The Chicago aviation officers who forcibly removed a passenger from a United Airlines flight filed reports saying the traveler was “aggressive” when responding to requests to give up his seat and flailed his arms while fighting with officers.
The reports, released Monday in response to Freedom of Information Act requests by the Los Angeles Times and others, contradict videos of the incident caught by fellow passengers on their cellphones and viewed by millions of people worldwide. Those videos show the passenger, Kentucky physician David Dao, refusing to give up his spot on a full flight, then being yanked from the seat by the officers, hitting his head against another seat and being dragged down the airplane’s aisle.
The ensuing public outrage prompted United Airlines to issue several apologies and launch a review of its procedures when dealing with sold-out flights. Chief Executive Oscar Munoz has promised that airline employees won’t call on law enforcement to remove passengers in the future if the incidents don’t involve safety or security.
The incident reports also reveal for the first time the names of the four officers involved in the incident, which left Dao, 69, with a concussion and other injuries. All four of those officers have been placed on administrative leave by the Chicago Department of Aviation, city records say.
The officers were identified as James Long, Mauricio Rodriguez Jr., Steven Smith and Sgt. John Moore. Two of the officers had previously been disciplined for workplace violations, according to city records.
Dao’s attorney, Chicago personal injury lawyer Thomas Demetrio, called the incident reports “utter nonsense. Consider the source.”
The April 9 flight from Chicago to Louisville, Ky., was full, and United tried to clear four seats to make room for airline employees who needed to work a shift the next day in Louisville. When the airline couldn’t get enough passengers to voluntarily give up their seats, the carrier picked four passengers to remove, including Dao.
In the incident reports, two of the officers blame Dao for his injuries, saying the passenger’s flailing motions made the officers lose their grip on him, causing him to fall face first into the armrest of a nearby seat.
After he was removed from the plane, the reports say, Dao was lying on the floor on the jet bridge talking to the officers when he bolted past them to get back into the plane. He agreed to leave the plane voluntarily to get medical attention, the reports say.
According to the police reports, Long, Rodriguez and Smith all urged Dao to leave his seat but he refused. Long tried to pull Dao out of his seat, with the help of Rodriguez and Smith, according to the reports.
But in his report, Long said, “the subject started swinging his arms up and down with a closed fist. Ofc. Long was able to grab the subject and pull him away from the window seat towards the aisle. But suddenly the subject started flailing and fighting.”
Long said Dao knocked the officer’s arm away, “which caused the subject to fall, hit, and injured his mouth on the armrest on the other side of the aisle.”
Rodriguez’s description of the incident was similar. “The subject then started flailing his arms and started to fight with Ofc. Long,” he wrote in the incident report.
Long had been suspended from his job for five days in March for ignoring a supervisor’s orders to keep vehicles from driving into a restricted area of the airport, according to documents provided by the city of Chicago.
Moore, who arrived after Dao was removed from the plane, had previously been disciplined at least seven times from 1999 to 2009 for failing to show up for work without notifying a supervisor, according to city records.
Hugo Martin Contact Reporter
April 24, 2017
The Chicago aviation officers who forcibly removed a passenger from a United Airlines flight filed reports saying the traveler was “aggressive” when responding to requests to give up his seat and flailed his arms while fighting with officers.
The reports, released Monday in response to Freedom of Information Act requests by the Los Angeles Times and others, contradict videos of the incident caught by fellow passengers on their cellphones and viewed by millions of people worldwide. Those videos show the passenger, Kentucky physician David Dao, refusing to give up his spot on a full flight, then being yanked from the seat by the officers, hitting his head against another seat and being dragged down the airplane’s aisle.
The ensuing public outrage prompted United Airlines to issue several apologies and launch a review of its procedures when dealing with sold-out flights. Chief Executive Oscar Munoz has promised that airline employees won’t call on law enforcement to remove passengers in the future if the incidents don’t involve safety or security.
The incident reports also reveal for the first time the names of the four officers involved in the incident, which left Dao, 69, with a concussion and other injuries. All four of those officers have been placed on administrative leave by the Chicago Department of Aviation, city records say.
The officers were identified as James Long, Mauricio Rodriguez Jr., Steven Smith and Sgt. John Moore. Two of the officers had previously been disciplined for workplace violations, according to city records.
Dao’s attorney, Chicago personal injury lawyer Thomas Demetrio, called the incident reports “utter nonsense. Consider the source.”
The April 9 flight from Chicago to Louisville, Ky., was full, and United tried to clear four seats to make room for airline employees who needed to work a shift the next day in Louisville. When the airline couldn’t get enough passengers to voluntarily give up their seats, the carrier picked four passengers to remove, including Dao.
In the incident reports, two of the officers blame Dao for his injuries, saying the passenger’s flailing motions made the officers lose their grip on him, causing him to fall face first into the armrest of a nearby seat.
After he was removed from the plane, the reports say, Dao was lying on the floor on the jet bridge talking to the officers when he bolted past them to get back into the plane. He agreed to leave the plane voluntarily to get medical attention, the reports say.
According to the police reports, Long, Rodriguez and Smith all urged Dao to leave his seat but he refused. Long tried to pull Dao out of his seat, with the help of Rodriguez and Smith, according to the reports.
But in his report, Long said, “the subject started swinging his arms up and down with a closed fist. Ofc. Long was able to grab the subject and pull him away from the window seat towards the aisle. But suddenly the subject started flailing and fighting.”
Long said Dao knocked the officer’s arm away, “which caused the subject to fall, hit, and injured his mouth on the armrest on the other side of the aisle.”
Rodriguez’s description of the incident was similar. “The subject then started flailing his arms and started to fight with Ofc. Long,” he wrote in the incident report.
Long had been suspended from his job for five days in March for ignoring a supervisor’s orders to keep vehicles from driving into a restricted area of the airport, according to documents provided by the city of Chicago.
Moore, who arrived after Dao was removed from the plane, had previously been disciplined at least seven times from 1999 to 2009 for failing to show up for work without notifying a supervisor, according to city records.
The police report documents are here:
http://documents.latimes.com/inciden...united-flight/
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
c'mon, they even take courses in how to write these reports.
Let's see, almost identical language, and then this gem:
These guys aren't real cops; they're wannabes.
Let's see, almost identical language, and then this gem:
Long had been suspended from his job for five days in March for ignoring a supervisor’s orders to keep vehicles from driving into a restricted area of the airport, according to documents provided by the city of Chicago.
Moore, who arrived after Dao was removed from the plane, had previously been disciplined at least seven times from 1999 to 2009 for failing to show up for work without notifying a supervisor, according to city records.
Moore, who arrived after Dao was removed from the plane, had previously been disciplined at least seven times from 1999 to 2009 for failing to show up for work without notifying a supervisor, according to city records.
What else do you expect cops to say ?
This is pretty standard covering their tracks, i'm just surprised they didn't say 'I felt threatened'
Lucky he wasn't shot by these idiots.
This is pretty standard covering their tracks, i'm just surprised they didn't say 'I felt threatened'
Lucky he wasn't shot by these idiots.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Doncaster
Age: 50
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts