USA Today: UA forcibly remove random pax from flight
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Denied "boarding" of course is critical here also. He had already boarded. Absent any illegal activity on his part, the seat is his. Any actions by UAL, Frontier, Airport security guards, or their agents to physically remove him is prima facie illegal. Can you say false arrest, assault, battery, false imprisonment, Title 18 USC civil rights violation, ...
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If, in fact, as you keep asserting, there weren't other options, it's because United had boxed itself into a corner, perhaps by failing to anticipate the need to transport DH crew at the last minute, or perhaps through poor operational planning, or perhaps through a penny-wise, pound-foolish set of operational priorities.
Any way you want to cut it, this entire incident, that turned what otherwise would have been a few thousand $ spent on accommodation, and a couple of travelers only too delighted to take their $1,200 and fly out the next day, into a PR debacle worth hundreds of millions of dollars in reputational damage.
Is there any possible way you could look at this that does not lead to the ultimate conclusion that United screwed up? Maybe the screwup wasn't Sunday night. Maybe the holes in the swiss cheese started to line up weeks, or months, or years earlier: in training, in developing contingency plans; in designing the organizational structure and assigning levels of discretionary authority; in establishing relationships with Part 135 operators at major hubs; in negotiating contracts with crew, etc.
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All 70 passengers from 3411 are being fully re-imbursed. That's cheaper than just offering some passenger $1500.
Q: Are gate agents financially incentivized to keep the reimbursements/vouchers as low in value as possible?
Q: Are gate agents financially incentivized to keep the reimbursements/vouchers as low in value as possible?
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It was more a case that they (deliberately) would not understand his position and, having decided he was the one to go, were determined to use their arrogant power-trip-fuelled bully boy tactics to throw him off. It's so refreshing to finally see a stop being put to their gallop.
Hmm, some of us in the rest of the world might have imagined that American labour was more flexible than the stereotypes we have been fed by parts of our press about ourselves for years.
Now someone is telling us about unions in American airlines. It makes sense to me to have agreements like not sitting on jump seats for more than an hour, though it sounds above like just not allowed at all. Now it additionally seems that 4 to 10 seat aircraft that are perfectly good enough as occasional transport for millionaire businessmen might cause certain aircrew to turn their noses up.
Oh dear.
If the crew won't deign to be flown by some 25 year old oik that might remind them of their former selves, then as Satco~ hinted above, why not put the denied or removed passengers on it instead?
The airline has about 1 in 1000 of its passengers affected by changing their plans for them either voluntarily or not. If it works out too expensive to treat them well enough, then revise booking policy and methods.
Now someone is telling us about unions in American airlines. It makes sense to me to have agreements like not sitting on jump seats for more than an hour, though it sounds above like just not allowed at all. Now it additionally seems that 4 to 10 seat aircraft that are perfectly good enough as occasional transport for millionaire businessmen might cause certain aircrew to turn their noses up.
Oh dear.
If the crew won't deign to be flown by some 25 year old oik that might remind them of their former selves, then as Satco~ hinted above, why not put the denied or removed passengers on it instead?
The airline has about 1 in 1000 of its passengers affected by changing their plans for them either voluntarily or not. If it works out too expensive to treat them well enough, then revise booking policy and methods.
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It was more a case that they (deliberately) would not understand his position and, having decided he was the one to go, were determined to use their arrogant power-trip-fuelled bully boy tactics to throw him off. It's so refreshing to finally see a stop being put to their gallop.
Particularly with regard to the belligerent attitude we now seem to encourage in everybody from shopping mall parking attendants to airline gate agents, all in the name of "security" of course.
I'm sure that any contingency standby alternate transportation that could have been in place with a simple retainer fee was nixed by the idiot bean counters that run the airlines these days. These are the same geniuses that set the overbooking compensation amounts and figure out what percentage to overbook flights by.
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WC,
Why don't you give it up? The UAL CEO said they were wrong and they were. Apparently, you are having a hard time with the basic reason you have a job at which ever airline you fly for, is simply because you have customers that come first, not second or third or not at all...
I saw this video. The Doctor was very cordial when asked to deplane but changed when he was informed that he would not be able to reach Louisville until Monday afternoon and then became "belligerent" when they came to drag him out.
I sincerely hope you are not representative of the total air transport industry, better yet, I am glad I am retired from this industry in case you are truly reflective of it... SAD!
There's a new video today where the officer explains to the Dr he has to leave, he refuses, saying he's not leaving, and you know what happens after. I'm trying to find the video, but it's out there.
I saw this video. The Doctor was very cordial when asked to deplane but changed when he was informed that he would not be able to reach Louisville until Monday afternoon and then became "belligerent" when they came to drag him out.
I sincerely hope you are not representative of the total air transport industry, better yet, I am glad I am retired from this industry in case you are truly reflective of it... SAD!
Last edited by Turbine D; 13th Apr 2017 at 00:25. Reason: word corrections
The many US crew posts here perfectly describe the reason US carriers are so hated by the passengers and why carriers like the ME3, BA, CX, SQ, ANA thrive--they understand the customer's desires and respect them humans. The arrogance of "it's our toy to fly and public be damned" is exactly how air travel is here.
I was a corporate chief pilot and we never positioned crews on US carriers outside of North America unless absolutely necessary due to hideous service, lost bags, bumps, etc.
I was a corporate chief pilot and we never positioned crews on US carriers outside of North America unless absolutely necessary due to hideous service, lost bags, bumps, etc.
An aviation attorney has weighed in from the article linked here: David Dao vs United Lawsuit - How Much Can United Airlines Be Sued For
"First, Wolk believes the airline breached its own contract by removing Dao. Having read United's contract of carriage in its entirety, Wolk thinks Dao could sue for assault and battery, intentional infliction of emotional disturbance, and may also have grounds to sue under various civil rights acts, in addition to that breach of contract.
"There is nothing in that contract that gives United the right to commit an assault and battery on a passenger," he told me over the phone.
"This is not a denied boarding incident, which is covered by the contract; this man was already boarded. This is not an oversold incident, as provided for by the contract; this airplane was not oversold—every passenger was ticketed and had a seat.
"This was not a situation where the passenger was unruly, committed a criminal act, interfered with the flight crew, was incapable of being a passenger by himself or anything of that nature, obviously until they attempted to physically throw him off the airplane.
"So to me, United Airlines breached their own contract of carriage."
Second, if Wolk points out that if this case does go to trial, the case would come down to the jury—another major obstacle for United. "You have to understand what your jury pool is going to look like here. Virtually every person who has flown on an airline flight on a regular basis feels that airlines abuse their passengers. The mindset of the jury pool is that they hate the way they're being treated by airlines."
"First, Wolk believes the airline breached its own contract by removing Dao. Having read United's contract of carriage in its entirety, Wolk thinks Dao could sue for assault and battery, intentional infliction of emotional disturbance, and may also have grounds to sue under various civil rights acts, in addition to that breach of contract.
"There is nothing in that contract that gives United the right to commit an assault and battery on a passenger," he told me over the phone.
"This is not a denied boarding incident, which is covered by the contract; this man was already boarded. This is not an oversold incident, as provided for by the contract; this airplane was not oversold—every passenger was ticketed and had a seat.
"This was not a situation where the passenger was unruly, committed a criminal act, interfered with the flight crew, was incapable of being a passenger by himself or anything of that nature, obviously until they attempted to physically throw him off the airplane.
"So to me, United Airlines breached their own contract of carriage."
Second, if Wolk points out that if this case does go to trial, the case would come down to the jury—another major obstacle for United. "You have to understand what your jury pool is going to look like here. Virtually every person who has flown on an airline flight on a regular basis feels that airlines abuse their passengers. The mindset of the jury pool is that they hate the way they're being treated by airlines."
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Looks like United is already taking steps to quickly resolve the matter 
:
United to refund ticket cost to Flight 3411 passengers - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports
:United to refund ticket cost to Flight 3411 passengers - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports
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Powell said he and other passengers were in shock, but the worst part, for him, came when Dao returned to the plane and was cornered near the bathroom in the back - closer to Powell's students. "I'm thinking to myself, 'Nothing good is coming of this,'" Powell said. "... I removed my kids from the plane, saying we don't need to see this stuff. We got up and left." The group was quickly followed by a father and his eight-year-old daughter, who was crying along with one of Powell's students, he said. Soon after, the airline deboarded the plane to clean up blood from the incident.
It was reported that some passengers with small children refused to re-board the flight, and took travel vouchers from United for a later flight. Thus the flight 3411 departed two hours later, with EMPTY SEATS.
Class action coming from other pax on the flight.
It was reported that some passengers with small children refused to re-board the flight, and took travel vouchers from United for a later flight. Thus the flight 3411 departed two hours later, with EMPTY SEATS.
Class action coming from other pax on the flight.
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UA doesn't control whether this goes to court or not. If they offer $10M settlement and his lawyers refuse, it goes to court. There may be some point at which Dao may settle but it's not in his attorney's best interest to cave early.
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I hope the Doc does NOT take the offer. This case needs to go to court so that changes can be made as to how airlines handle well behaved , seated and ticketed passengers who are well within , at least common sense rights, to fly without the fear of being offloaded. Passenger rights are being usurped here.
United employee's excuse "we were following established process"
The following quotation from Jeff Bezos is appropriate in this instance:
Jeff Bezos, 2017 –
"This can happen very easily in large organizations. The process becomes the proxy for the result you want. You stop looking at outcomes and just make sure you're doing the process right.” Gulp.
“It's not that rare to hear a junior leader defend a bad outcome with something like, 'Well, we followed the process.' A more experienced leader will use it as an opportunity to investigate and improve the process. The process is not the thing. It's always worth asking, do we own the process or does the process own us?"
The following quotation from Jeff Bezos is appropriate in this instance:
Jeff Bezos, 2017 –
"This can happen very easily in large organizations. The process becomes the proxy for the result you want. You stop looking at outcomes and just make sure you're doing the process right.” Gulp.
“It's not that rare to hear a junior leader defend a bad outcome with something like, 'Well, we followed the process.' A more experienced leader will use it as an opportunity to investigate and improve the process. The process is not the thing. It's always worth asking, do we own the process or does the process own us?"
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I'm only speaking up now (and risking smack down by the pros followed by a swift removal from the site) because I am so appalled by the sheer arrogance of this particular poster. I've read thousands of posts on this site, and I don't think I've seen anyone express him- or herself in such a pompous, preening, sanctimonious manner. While I'm not a mental health professional, his tone and language convey an air of grandiosity that borders on narcissistic. Add me to the list of people who'd like to know who employs Captain Happy, because this is not someone I want conveying my 67-year-old disabled mother to see her ailing sister. This is not the man I want at the helm when my 19-year-old niece travels to South America to begin her study abroad this summer. Plenty of decent, considerate, safety- and passenger-oriented captains out there. This site proves as much. The world doesn't need another Jakob van Zanten.
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Additionally this won't just be a civil suit. See my post up the page; they're likely to face regulatory/criminal action for their breach of CFRs. They're unlikely to be able to pay that away.
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And Mr. Bezos is right. Behemoth companies often rely on paper procedures (manuals) to guide staff, thus diminishing the roles of roles of humans up the chain of command in the "next decision" process. This can work well for technical aspects (check lists, repair manuals etc.) but often not very well when dealing with human factors. There is still a wide aversion to empowerment of employees in many corporations albeit often for good reasons (education levels, intelligence, motivation......).
At the end of this, I most dislike the Chicago Aviation Police bully-boy who decided that as brute force capabilities were the reason for his existence, applied his fall back situation resolution skills to the weak.
At the end of this, I most dislike the Chicago Aviation Police bully-boy who decided that as brute force capabilities were the reason for his existence, applied his fall back situation resolution skills to the weak.