USA Today: UA forcibly remove random pax from flight
Yup, love the consternation here, people will continue to choose based on cost and to a lesser degree convenience. I as an airline pilot buy tickets when the family has to be somewhere on a timeline. That often times puts me on the competition's aircraft.
The crew, i have no doubt did not in anyway overstep their authority,
You can't demand a pax get off just so staff can get on, threaten pax with LEO, contact LEO...... and then say we are not responsible for what happened next. The airline appear to have started this chain of events by deciding he needed to get off so they could get staff on.
As the CEO has confirmed, the airline can't kick someone off if s/he isn't doing anything wrong, and he has undertaken this won't happen again. So someone did overstep. Most likely that person believed they were correctly following policy and enforcing the rules....Only they weren't.
As stated previously, this escalated out of control because everyone focused on their rights and authority, and overlooked their responsibility and common decency.
The pax should probably have handled this better. But the general expectation in a customer service industry is that the professional staff should (and will) be held to a higher standard than an individual customer. Don't accept this? Simple, don't work in a customer service industry.
Anyway it appears this is just about all over. The court of public opinion is the fastest court in the land. Everyone simply needs to agree how many zeroes on the check.
It's surely a matter of management (small 'm') Airlines codeshare and run close to capacity because the competitive market sets prices that need this to break even. Crew will need to DH for positioning - this is predictable. Any delay downroute can take crews beyond permitted duty hours at short notice, so there needs to be contingency planning.
In the past this was done by DHing at short notice and there was usually the spare capacity to accomodate it. But the airline needs a decent contingency plan for when there are no unsold seats available. I would suggest bumping passengers is a high-risk answer. I already have three airlines on my "not ever" list* and I'm thinking that UA is probably going to make it four for this reason. So what's the alternative?
Well a very brief chat with Mr Google reveals the large number of smaller GA airports around Chicago which have a lot of short-term charter companies available (and I'm only looking at anthying King Air or above). Were I the risk manager at an airline I'd be looking to have a call-off contract with many of these by which I could get needed crews flown from the smaller airport to a GA airport near the required destination at short notice. This would also provide me with an actual cost to feed into the risk calculations to trade agains the costs of keeping spare capacity and/or bribing passengers to accept bumping.
* Delta, AA and Ryan
In the past this was done by DHing at short notice and there was usually the spare capacity to accomodate it. But the airline needs a decent contingency plan for when there are no unsold seats available. I would suggest bumping passengers is a high-risk answer. I already have three airlines on my "not ever" list* and I'm thinking that UA is probably going to make it four for this reason. So what's the alternative?
Well a very brief chat with Mr Google reveals the large number of smaller GA airports around Chicago which have a lot of short-term charter companies available (and I'm only looking at anthying King Air or above). Were I the risk manager at an airline I'd be looking to have a call-off contract with many of these by which I could get needed crews flown from the smaller airport to a GA airport near the required destination at short notice. This would also provide me with an actual cost to feed into the risk calculations to trade agains the costs of keeping spare capacity and/or bribing passengers to accept bumping.
* Delta, AA and Ryan
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Deadheading Flight Crew can take the jumpseat, however, they have to leave the aircraft and clear the Cockpit Access security protocols and will loose their protected 'must ride' status. ON RJ's the jumpseaters are not part of the BOW, so could conceivably have to leave later based on W&B; and then are really in trouble. That's a missed trip.
And, even if the pilots 'volunteered' to position on a cockpit jumpseat, it might not be feasible for operational reasons.
As someone wryly observed, all the sea lawyers here on PPRuNe, including me
, will become accident investigators when the next plane goes into the weeds. 
Well a very brief chat with Mr Google reveals the large number of smaller GA airports around Chicago which have a lot of short-term charter companies available (and I'm only looking at anthying King Air or above). Were I the risk manager at an airline I'd be looking to have a call-off contract with many of these
Someone above says that the USA "doesn't do this". Not sure why. Even Ryanair on their disparate network across Europe have three executive aircraft (dedicated, not charter) used to move both crews and parts/engineers around as required.
Regarding this being "inevitable" as people demand for the lowest fares, I have to say that over a longer term I find that US airfares have escalated more than elsewhere in the world, and more than general inflation.
Anyone knowing the industry would expect that Chicago O'Hare to Louisville in nowadays going to be an oligopoly, which it is, just American and United from their Chicago hub. Louisville is not a hub so nothing else from there. Both offer comparable, ever lower, standards of service. Both have progressively downsized, so such a route, which once had mainstream aircraft, is now wholly operated by commuter franchise operators. Both give some attention to their (higher spending) frequent fliers and to those connecting to their own trunk routes; little attention is given to others. Load factors go ever upwards - the passengers bumped were not going to be flown until the following afternoon, several flights later (and doubtless not mentioned at the time).
At what point did UA know it needed to get 4 from A to B? 5-mins before flight, 5 hours before flight? When was this requirement communicated to those that really ought to know?
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Nelki
Cockpit Access protocol, Please explain.
In Europe I can put any company DH crew on any spare jumpseat any time.
Are you saying they may have gone with a DH tqt in PAX security and to go on jumpseat have to go at Crew security.
I must have that wrong!
SATCOS
Genuine offloads are no problem, it is the ones that think they just got more rights, that are going to be the problem. We just confirmed our basic rights as PAX. Nothing more.
Consider some already look at us as Glorified Taxi Drivers, GTDs, I hardly think this was helpful with regards to crowd control.
Some Airlines has been getting away with a lot in the name of safety and security and SOP.
Mr John Tune of the Senate Committee is not going to be happy to find out that the industry is falsely using the safety and security card, me thinks.
In Europe I can put any company DH crew on any spare jumpseat any time.
Are you saying they may have gone with a DH tqt in PAX security and to go on jumpseat have to go at Crew security.
I must have that wrong!
SATCOS
Genuine offloads are no problem, it is the ones that think they just got more rights, that are going to be the problem. We just confirmed our basic rights as PAX. Nothing more.
Consider some already look at us as Glorified Taxi Drivers, GTDs, I hardly think this was helpful with regards to crowd control.
Some Airlines has been getting away with a lot in the name of safety and security and SOP.
Mr John Tune of the Senate Committee is not going to be happy to find out that the industry is falsely using the safety and security card, me thinks.
Whipping boy
You've made your mind up on that aspect via the interent?
There are daily operational realities that lead to situations such as this. To categorically label this a cockup indicates you haven't considered that possibility.
You've made your mind up on that aspect via the interent?
There are daily operational realities that lead to situations such as this. To categorically label this a cockup indicates you haven't considered that possibility.
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Forgetting all the legalistics, this whole episode, the way it is unfolding, is the result of two intelligence failures:
- The first was an artificial intelligence failure of a computer selecting the human victims.
Let's go back to the root cause of this: it was someone in Ops/Rostering etc who decided this crew had to position ASAP and started the chain of events. Was the positioning crew on an emergency callout to salvage an a/c off schedule? Were they planned for this trip but someone forgot to book them confirmed tickets, and then it was an "Ooops' moment? Whatever, someone low down the food chain kicked this off. Someone gave an order to get the crew on board at all costs. That someone has smelly underpants. It could be that Ops sent the crew, and the station manager actioned the evict order under pressure from Ops. There were cheese slices here and the first hole was, perhaps, forgetting to book the crew from seats, then the decision to get the crew on board at all costs. There were opportunities to close the holes in the following slices, but people kept lining them up until Ka'boom. If it was so important to get the crew on board they should have boarded first and then the flight would be over booked. Pax could be 'volunteered' at the gate. For the crew to arrive last suggests a last minute call out; or was this another cock up? So many opportunities to have avoided this, but it seems there was no common sense leadership from anyone. No doubt there will be a lot of 'buck passing' in the internal enquiry. One wonders how high up the hierarchy will they choose the judge and hang-man. There will be more than one person falling on their sword, or praying the hangman is sick, including the out of work bouncers who over stepped their authority. The pax can sue UAL for $$ and then also the bouncers for general unprovoked assault. Imagine the scenario where a nightclub bouncer is told to evict a customer for being drunk and then wildly man-handles the wrong guy. The bouncer is also liable.
Guess this guy was unlucky to have an isle seat. The computer section must have also included this little nicety. Could this be the next program on 'Air Smash Investigation', or will it be 'Bloopers'? I suspect the boarding crew must have felt like pigs at a Jewish wedding. I haven't read anything about the actions, or not, of the operating captain. Maybe I missed them in the pages: or did he hunker down?
- The first was an artificial intelligence failure of a computer selecting the human victims.
Let's go back to the root cause of this: it was someone in Ops/Rostering etc who decided this crew had to position ASAP and started the chain of events. Was the positioning crew on an emergency callout to salvage an a/c off schedule? Were they planned for this trip but someone forgot to book them confirmed tickets, and then it was an "Ooops' moment? Whatever, someone low down the food chain kicked this off. Someone gave an order to get the crew on board at all costs. That someone has smelly underpants. It could be that Ops sent the crew, and the station manager actioned the evict order under pressure from Ops. There were cheese slices here and the first hole was, perhaps, forgetting to book the crew from seats, then the decision to get the crew on board at all costs. There were opportunities to close the holes in the following slices, but people kept lining them up until Ka'boom. If it was so important to get the crew on board they should have boarded first and then the flight would be over booked. Pax could be 'volunteered' at the gate. For the crew to arrive last suggests a last minute call out; or was this another cock up? So many opportunities to have avoided this, but it seems there was no common sense leadership from anyone. No doubt there will be a lot of 'buck passing' in the internal enquiry. One wonders how high up the hierarchy will they choose the judge and hang-man. There will be more than one person falling on their sword, or praying the hangman is sick, including the out of work bouncers who over stepped their authority. The pax can sue UAL for $$ and then also the bouncers for general unprovoked assault. Imagine the scenario where a nightclub bouncer is told to evict a customer for being drunk and then wildly man-handles the wrong guy. The bouncer is also liable.
Guess this guy was unlucky to have an isle seat. The computer section must have also included this little nicety. Could this be the next program on 'Air Smash Investigation', or will it be 'Bloopers'? I suspect the boarding crew must have felt like pigs at a Jewish wedding. I haven't read anything about the actions, or not, of the operating captain. Maybe I missed them in the pages: or did he hunker down?
Blu
That's Europe, it isn't the same here. Many unions have a requirement not to ride the JS as it makes it unavailable for commuters working their way to or from a trip. Many, myself included are domiciled in one city but live elsewhere. This happens by choice, or in my case the domicile closed underneath me requiring me to commute. Thus is the reason that the JS isn't used much if at all to transport DH crewmembers. Any airline that sticks on duty pilots in the JS risks leaving commuting pilots behind. This in turn puts the Airlines pilot's JS ability at risk as agreements between Airlines are reciprocal. If airline X puts DH pilots in the actual JS enough, the pilots who commute at airline X will be excluded from other airlines jumpseats.
You may not like it, but that's the way it is here.
That's Europe, it isn't the same here. Many unions have a requirement not to ride the JS as it makes it unavailable for commuters working their way to or from a trip. Many, myself included are domiciled in one city but live elsewhere. This happens by choice, or in my case the domicile closed underneath me requiring me to commute. Thus is the reason that the JS isn't used much if at all to transport DH crewmembers. Any airline that sticks on duty pilots in the JS risks leaving commuting pilots behind. This in turn puts the Airlines pilot's JS ability at risk as agreements between Airlines are reciprocal. If airline X puts DH pilots in the actual JS enough, the pilots who commute at airline X will be excluded from other airlines jumpseats.
You may not like it, but that's the way it is here.
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It's refreshing to see that the United States Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation is asking very pointedly several of the questions many on pprune have been asking which certain others here have seemed to disdain.
In particular p3 onward:
http://www.pprune.org/attachments/ru...l-incident.pdf
In particular p3 onward:
http://www.pprune.org/attachments/ru...l-incident.pdf
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- "You sweet, innocent child. What a charmed life you have led."
- "In any group -- whether it's your soccer team, your social club, or your office, there's 'that guy.' If you don't know who in your group is 'that guy,' it's undoubtedly you."
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UAL's CEO Munoz named "U.S. Communicator of the Year" by PRWeek Magazine in March 2017. You can't make this stuff up.
Article
Article
United Airlines (UAL) CEO Oscar Munoz was, until Sunday, enjoying some flattering coverage for his skillful work steering United out of some choppy skies.
“He took charge at a very difficult time when the previous CEO left under a cloud," said PRWeek Editorial Director Steve Barrett in an interview with FOX Business. "He reengaged staff; he got all the union deals done ahead of schedule which was unprecedented. Customers service levels were up."
And then came that video.
Barrett said the "horrific optics" were made worse by Munoz's clumsy and "tone deaf" initial apology. "He had to do something...faster and in a much better style than they did,” Barrett said.
Just last month, Munoz had been named PRWeek's "U.S. Communicator of the Year," recognition of his work to galvanize the company and inspire his staff. But Barrett said those talents failed Munoz in his initial response to the dragging video.
“He took charge at a very difficult time when the previous CEO left under a cloud," said PRWeek Editorial Director Steve Barrett in an interview with FOX Business. "He reengaged staff; he got all the union deals done ahead of schedule which was unprecedented. Customers service levels were up."
And then came that video.
Barrett said the "horrific optics" were made worse by Munoz's clumsy and "tone deaf" initial apology. "He had to do something...faster and in a much better style than they did,” Barrett said.
Just last month, Munoz had been named PRWeek's "U.S. Communicator of the Year," recognition of his work to galvanize the company and inspire his staff. But Barrett said those talents failed Munoz in his initial response to the dragging video.
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The UAL ALPA contract is here and deadheading is covered under section 5-C:
https://crewroom.alpa.org/ual/Deskto...cumentID=49135
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I guess your 'somewhere on a timeline' criteria can becomes a bit of a challenge, especially with United's over-booking policy?
I have made my mind up based upon:
What I have read on here.
What I have seen in videos.
What I have seen on the news - including the interview with Oscar Munoz.
Just like EVERYONE else who has made a comment - you included.
Anyone who thinks that a cockup did not occur is, quite frankly, deluded. Someone, somewhere failed to get crucial information to the boarding desk in a timely manner. Whoever decided on what to offer in compo to try and get volunteers got the numbers wrong. Whoever had the power to find alternate methods of getting the crew from A to B failed to look at all options.
In a way you are right; not a cockup but a series of cock-ups.
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