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USA Today: UA forcibly remove random pax from flight

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USA Today: UA forcibly remove random pax from flight

Old 11th Apr 2017, 21:39
  #421 (permalink)  
 
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Matt
It's not about being a model citizen, it's about being compliant.

Guages

I've offered you the CFR that regulates compensation, know that refuting it you are you're relying on Internet lawyers who as of yesterday had never known of its existence.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 21:45
  #422 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast
The police were called because the passenger refused to leave. The pax doesn't have some absolute right to remain on private property. Thisis UA's property, if you're booted out of someone's business and refuse, do you honestly think management is just going to say, ok, you can stay.
None of which, in the eyes of the law, justifies committing the criminal offence of assault.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 21:48
  #423 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast
Matt


I've offered you the CFR that regulates compensation, know that refuting it you are you're relying on Internet lawyers who as of yesterday had never known of its existence.
I'm not relying on any 'Internet lawyers', and I was well aware of the relevant CFR long before yesterday. I'm relying on my own knowledge of the industry, of the regulations under which it operates, and, ultimately, my own ability to read.

The reg in question says nothing about the airline's ability to offer whatever it wants to passengers, as an enticement to get them to change to another flight, to change to another seat, to wear the airline's promotional hat, or anything else. Nothing. Your assertion that it does, is just as bizarre as it would be to assert that the regulation in question pertains to the thickness of paper on which ticket stock must be printed.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 21:51
  #424 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast
Matt
It's not about being a model citizen, it's about being compliant.

Guages

I've offered you the CFR that regulates compensation, know that refuting it you are you're relying on Internet lawyers who as of yesterday had never known of its existence.
For what it's worth, I would have taken the offer and got off, in fact many years ago, was travelling with a group and some of us couldn't be accommodated for the trip from SF to OZ, took up the offer which was a 3 course dinner at a local hotel in SF,in return for flying out 4 hours later, the deal was offered long before we left for the airport.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 21:53
  #425 (permalink)  
 
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A quite reasonable response.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 21:54
  #426 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast
Matt
It's not about being a model citizen, it's about being compliant.
If only more people had been compliant throughout history, we would never have had the Magna Carta, the US would still be a British colony, and black people would still be legally relegated to the back of the bus.

Because of this incident, you can bet that United is going to put some effort into fixing whatever broken set of policy, supervisory, and training cock-ups led to this problem in the first place. Had the passenger meekly complied, then the problem would continue to fester.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 21:54
  #427 (permalink)  
 
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It seems the pendulum has well and truly swung at UA, not long ago, some relatives of UA employees were refused travel because they were wearing leggings, now they literally drag a customer kicking and screaming off the flight to make way for staff 'relocations'.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 21:59
  #428 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GearDown&Locked
Honest question: who is then? Who holds the authority to command someone to deplane, one way or the other ?
If you ask the ramp agent over the pond they claim that's their cup of tea as long as you are on "their ramp" and the doors are open.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 22:05
  #429 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast
A quite reasonable response.
The airline was Pan Am.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 22:06
  #430 (permalink)  
 
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without having to justify ANYTHING to ANYONE
Really? Doesn't an order have to be legal and thus justifiable in a court of law?
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 22:06
  #431 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gauges and Dials
I'm not relying on any 'Internet lawyers', and I was well aware of the relevant CFR long before yesterday. I'm relying on my own knowledge of the industry, of the regulations under which it operates, and, ultimately, my own ability to read.

The reg in question says nothing about the airline's ability to offer whatever it wants to passengers, as an enticement to get them to change to another flight, to change to another seat, to wear the airline's promotional hat, or anything else. Nothing. Your assertion that it does, is just as bizarre as it would be to assert that the regulation in question pertains to the thickness of paper on which ticket stock must be printed.
Delta offers frequently (depends on the situation) more then the "min. amount". My "ex housedragon" received last year 2.000 Dollar+Hotel and Dinner.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 22:09
  #432 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast
There's no absolute rights when you're on private property.
Yes there are. Lots and lots of them.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 22:14
  #433 (permalink)  
 
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Some (most) of you people are blinded by your emotions. The captain of that flight is the ultimate authority and he asked the cabin crew to carry out a company command (remove 4 passengers) for WHATEVER reason (in this case, to take on 4 non-revs). He can do that without having to justify ANYTHING to ANYONE.
Going back to the very start of this thread, it isn't about what the captain can do. It is about how this situation was managed. It wasn't managed very well! The captain (who answers to a lot of people) is a senior manager in a customer focused industry. That responsibility in turn devolves to a number of other people under his or her charge. Good management involves awareness, common sense, flexibility and communication. When those ingredients are best employed this sort of situation simply shouldn't arise and of course it rarely does. There is no suggestion in any of these reports that the captain was particularly instrumental in managing the sequence of events and it is still sufficiently opaque as to exactly who was driving these decisions. Nevertheless it seems to be have been very poorly managed at many levels.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 22:16
  #434 (permalink)  
 
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I'm no lawyer, but I am in aviation claims, and this will be a major claim since UA's insurance company will pay for their defense (aka hire the attorneys) and settlement. It doesn't really matter what the background of this guy is. What matters is what happened in that incident, and what was broadcasted to the world to see. This doctor(however crooked he may be) already has a lawyer who is writing up the complaint against UA stuffed full of everything he/she can think of. Bodily injury, mental anguish, pain and suffering, you name it. The suit will be for multiple millions of dollars, and yes there will be plenty of fluff in there. But UA will not want to try this case. They will settle out of court.

Imagine the defense attorney in front of the jury, explaining why UA was within their rights to treat this guy like a sack of , pulling out rules and fine print. Then trying to assassinate the plaintiff's character. Any American jury would begin to quiver with rage that the big bad airline, with the arrogant CEO would even think of trying to justify the way the plaintiff was treated. All the plaintiff attorney will have to do is play the videos over and over, then say "so because UA employees needed to get somewhere, it was UA's right to give Dr. So and So a blooded face, concussion, and international humiliation??" They will award the plaintiff as much as they possibly can. I've been in the courtrooms for many smaller, yet similar cases, and the airline ALWAYS loses.

And don't forget the cop goons that did the actual dirty work. Their department will be sued as well. That's the way it works here in America, suits are filed against the airlines every day, but this one has major legs. UA really cocked this one all up.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 22:17
  #435 (permalink)  
 
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Matt

The legging incident was discussed earlier, they were traveling on pass privledges (free/deeply discounted tickets from an employee,l) thus required to comply with a dress code.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 22:17
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
I've flown on all of those carriers over they years and have operated into most of their bases.

I would suggest that if a convicted drug trafficker with documented anger management and psych issues became belligerent when told to deplane, well, he might not be treated with kid gloves.

NOT applicable to this person.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 22:22
  #437 (permalink)  
 
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I don't know if it is still sufficiently up to date as it is a paper 17½ years old, but some of this may assist consideration of the legals of forced disembarkation:

http://www.raes-hfg.com/reports/12oc...21099-kane.pdf
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 22:26
  #438 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Claybird
If a guy goes in a coffee-shop and disturbs the place and the police show up and they beat him and they deny him basic rights, would that person sue the coffee shop or the police? The police, of course.
I think you're missing a key element here. If a guy goes into a coffee-shop (which is a place of public accommodation), and the owner says, "We don't serve <insert ethnic group or other protected class> here," and the guy insists on his legal right to be served, and the situation escalates, and the owner calls the police, and the police break the guy's face, then he's absolutely going to sue the coffee shop. As he should. And he will win. It is the coffee shop that initiated, provoked, and escalated the situation.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 22:31
  #439 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Claybird
Some (most) of you people are blinded by your emotions. The captain of that flight is the ultimate authority and he asked the cabin crew to carry out a company command (remove 4 passengers) for WHATEVER reason (in this case, to take on 4 non-revs). He can do that without having to justify ANYTHING to ANYONE.
I do not know of any airline in which a captain can arbitrarily offload a paying passenger for no reason, without needing to justify his actions to his management, at the risk of losing his job. Do you?

Also, there are not very many countries in which a captain can arbitrarily offload a paying passenger for no reason, without needing to justify his actions to the aviation or business regulatory authorities, at the risk of a fine or other sanction.

I'd call the statement categorically false.
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Old 11th Apr 2017, 22:31
  #440 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Claybird
If a guy goes in a coffee-shop and disturbs the place and the police show up and they beat him and they deny him basic rights, would that person sue the coffee shop or the police? The police, of course.
Not if the sign over the coffee shop says "Starbucks."

Personal injury attorneys go after whatever deep pockets are available, when there is the slightest chance a jury would find the actions of the "venue" liable. And there is more than enough evidence (in social media/jury sympathy terms) to include United here. There will be a strong motive to settle and avoid further PR damage.
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