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USA Today: UA forcibly remove random pax from flight

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USA Today: UA forcibly remove random pax from flight

Old 12th Apr 2017, 22:24
  #661 (permalink)  
 
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Claybird,

There is NO way UA Legal is going let this go to court. As to the Chicago Police, they have a long record of paying to victims of police bodily injuries--millions for less than this event.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 22:29
  #662 (permalink)  
 
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Another development in the case, it appears that all three officers were indeed from the Chicago Department of Aviation, not the Chicago Police Department as some earlier reports said:

2 more officers placed on leave after passenger dragged off United flight

By Jessica D'Onofrio
Updated 12 mins ago
CHICAGO (WLS) --

The Chicago Department of Aviation says two more officers have been placed on administrative leave after a Kentucky doctor was dragged off a United flight Sunday.

One officer was placed on leave Monday, one day after the incident. CDA said it will not release the names of the officers.
2 more officers placed on leave after passenger dragged off United flight | abc7chicago.com
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 22:33
  #663 (permalink)  
 
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GF,

This passenger is obviously not interested in some sort of quiet resolution of this incident possibly involving UAL paying him an undisclosed amount of money and sign an NDA.
So with attorneys looking into records, calls or whatever that probably means that UAL will have to defend its position based on the evidence that might be uncovered.
That also means that the matter can - and should, in my humble opinion - be pursued (on different level, that of passenger liability) based on federal statutes involving disregarding commands by federal officers, declining to act upon crew instructions and disrupting interstate commerce by keeping the aircraft on the ground because of said actions.
A quiet deal with UAL might have prompted the company to ask the authorities that the matter quietly die down, but it seems that might not be the case on the part of the customer in question.
So, like I said, every stone left unturned.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 22:34
  #664 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
So whose clever idea was it to stop at $800, then, and do they still have a job?


Instead of a few grand they've spent millions, which makes no sense at all - if they had budget authority for millions they would also have had budget authority for the few grand.
No idea Gertrude, none of it makes sense in a commercial public-service world.

I figure the refund noted above will amount to around $30,000 - $40,000.
Add to that the compensation to Dr Dao and the loss in share value then and future losses due to reputation taking a hammering then $4800 to off-load 4 pax seems a bargain
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 22:36
  #665 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
Would it be worth it for me to hold out for ten grand to get off a flight the next time if I find myself being asked?
Go ahead.

But I guarantee you that rather than offer you the $10K, they'll find someone else who'd be thrilled to deplane for $1,000 or maybe $2,000.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 22:41
  #666 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Harry Wayfarers View Post
And would I be right in presuming that this happened over a weekend when no management may have been on duty to authorise a King Air or whatever?
This is a major operational hub for an airline with a 24/7 operating schedule,, global operations, and nearly five thousand flights per day. The notion that there would be nobody on duty who could authorize alternative transport simply beggars the imagination.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 22:47
  #667 (permalink)  
 
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Stand easy, they're not after the crew, they're after United. This is straight from the playbook.
Unintended consequences. The CVR will be in the public domain, therefore the FAA is apt to listen to it. A well documented case at my airline had the FAA take note of a conversation prior to departure where the FO said he was tired and had considered calling off the trip. A number of hours later at the destination, ground personnel marshaled the crew into the gate and clipped the wing of an adjacent aircraft. This on the Captain's side. The crew was found not to be at fault, however the FAA went after the FO for flying fatigued, based off a comment on the CVR. Dismissed but not after many sleepless nights, pun intended.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 22:52
  #668 (permalink)  
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Before saying that the pax could be legally asked to leave by crew - ask if he:
a) Knew that in advance (as very few pax know)
b) Was it explained to him that he had to leave?
Both are highly unlikely.

We know that United Breaks Guitars: 2008 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Breaks_Guitars
And we know that, after being told to stop taking pictures - and COMPLYING - another pax was thrown off: 2013 Thrown Off a United Airlines Flight for Taking Pictures! - Live and Let's Fly (thre is a follow on story link at the bottom of the page)

As to the CEO: he made a standard CEO first response based on what he was being told. He will be telling his people that, next time, they'd better tell him the full situation.

I don't think he should lose his job but the media can afford to try and unseat him as the outcome is win/win for them.

Both of these events happened before Munoz took control. What he needs to point out is that NO ONE learnt a DAMM THING.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 22:56
  #669 (permalink)  
 
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simply beggars the imagination.
This because you have you blinders on. Chartering isn't something that's done in US part 121 flying. There are plan B and C, such as a later flight and delaying the departure the DH crew was to fly, if there is another crew at SDF already, alter their schedule, this being unlikely at SDF for a number of reasons. There isn't an established process to call some charter service and find out if there's a king aire hanging around doing nothing. Aircraft of that level are expensive and tasked pretty heavily to afford them, not a guarantee ones available.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 23:03
  #670 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
Unintended consequences. The CVR will be in the public domain, therefore the FAA is apt to listen to it. A well documented case at my airline had the FAA take note of a conversation prior to departure where the FO said he was tired and had considered calling off the trip. A number of hours later at the destination, ground personnel marshaled the crew into the gate and clipped the wing of an adjacent aircraft. This on the Captain's side. The crew was found not to be at fault, however the FAA went after the FO for flying fatigued, based off a comment on the CVR. Dismissed but not after many sleepless nights, pun intended.
Well, these are also consequences of the 'hear no evil. see no evil' approach that the entire staff took to this episode. Everyone will be put through the mill.
It is entirely possible that this event will trigger a more substantial review of the current airline rules. The US carriers operate oligopolies or monopolies on most routes, yet they are still regulated as if there were active competition.
Mr Munoz's recent about face and sudden shift from intransigent to apologetic probably reflects his belated recognition that the rules might be changed if the public is sufficiently outraged.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 23:03
  #671 (permalink)  
 
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I worked for Continental in London and we hired air taxis when needed to transport spares and Engineers all over Europe - a quick call to Maintrol in Houston was all that was needed as authorisation.

I'm just grateful that the guy wasn't wearing leggings - they would probably have shot him..
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 23:05
  #672 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
This because you have you blinders on.
Many people have blinders on, including, apparently, the idiots in charge Sunday night who found themselves constitutionally incapable of thinking outside the box.

I happen to have spent time at the operations control facility for a major U.S. based carrier of the size we're talking about, and I guarantee you there is plenty of management discretion available to solve operational problems as they arise.

There isn't an established process to call some charter service and find out if there's a king aire hanging around doing nothing.
Well, that's just damn dumb, isn't it.

Aircraft of that level are expensive
And developing a reputation for involuntarily bumping paying customers (even if the result is merely a pissed-off customer rather than the fracas we see here) isn't also quite expensive?
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 23:09
  #673 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by noflynomore View Post

If, as stated by UA not enough pax took up the payoff option than is is clear that some would have to be bumped.
Really?

Here on my planet, if not enough pax took up the payoff option, then it is clear that the payoff offer would need to be increased.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 23:12
  #674 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Looks like the attorneys are going after the CVR on the plane. Remember the nave days when we were told that it could only be used for safety purposes?
Somewhat off-topic, but it wouldn't be all that hard to mount the argument that investigating an incident that resulted in a passenger in the hospital and blood all over the aircraft interior might be safety-related.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 23:13
  #675 (permalink)  
 
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Gauges

You may not agree, at least you finally understand the process. It'll be the one that's in place a week, a month and a decade plus from now.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 23:15
  #676 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
Stay on task, the point is about releasing the CVR data.
Generally, the pro-authority side's response to such concerns boils down to, "what's the matter, got something to hide?"

You've been pretty consistently making the pro-authority argument here. Feel differently when it's the CVR tapes?
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 23:20
  #677 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by noflynomore View Post
ie after boarding a requirement to move 4 staff appeared, and in order to allow perhaps 2/300 people to fly tomorrow 4 were required to deplane right now? ... If so the reason was sound and perfectly reasonable.
No, it was not perfectly reasonable, it was completely unreasonable. It was the airline's problem, not the passengers', and they should have found some other way to fix it. If you think this is "perfectly reasonable" I hope you're not in a service industry.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 23:20
  #678 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
There isn't an established process to call some charter service and find out if there's a king aire hanging around doing nothing.
Oh but there is. It's called a TELEPHONE.
Aircraft of that level are expensive and tasked pretty heavily to afford them, not a guarantee ones available.
Do you think the actual outcome has been cheaper?
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 23:22
  #679 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gauges and Dials View Post
Somewhat off-topic, but it wouldn't be all that hard to mount the argument that investigating an incident that resulted in a passenger in the hospital and blood all over the aircraft interior might be safety-related.
You may have a point. This may well be a reportable incident for the FAA even if the aircraft didn't move for the purpose of flight. Should the crew have pulled the CVR circuit breaker? Did they? It might depend on what is in Republic's ops manual. And often this conflicts with guidance in the other manuals like the ones that the United gate agents have.

And, I'm sure it's a TSA incident as well.
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Old 12th Apr 2017, 23:24
  #680 (permalink)  
 
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Was he arrested at any point?

The passenger chosen to be dumped was slightly built, compared to some of the other passengers whom would be far more difficult to manhandle.
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