So WestJet almost puts one of their 737 in the water while landing at St-Maarten...
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: FL410
Posts: 860
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"A significant number of operating practices allow the discretion to the Commander to decide how the flight should be flown. These are characterised with the need to exercise sound judgement and prudent assessment and may be referred to as sound operating practises (included under the more general heading of airmanship during an earlier period)."
Re photos of the airport, yes, found earlier as posted above.
Re, "Also confirmed by the airport chart."
The PAPI information is not on the Jepp Airport chart. The info is on the approach plates, just below the profile section.
Herod, yessir, ten years retired and stuff does slip away!
Re, "Also confirmed by the airport chart."
The PAPI information is not on the Jepp Airport chart. The info is on the approach plates, just below the profile section.
Herod, yessir, ten years retired and stuff does slip away!
PJ / FW, " four reds ". " something beneath the aircraft ".
This assumes that PAPI was visible sometime after 'first contact'. Furthermore this poses the question, contact with which feature.
Conventional overland NPAs require visual contact with the runway environment, which can be interpreted as not requiring contact with the runway, and in extreme no approach lights.
This assumes that PAPI was visible sometime after 'first contact'. Furthermore this poses the question, contact with which feature.
Conventional overland NPAs require visual contact with the runway environment, which can be interpreted as not requiring contact with the runway, and in extreme no approach lights.
For us all red or all white visual slope guidance is a mandatory go-around below 1,000R because the approach is unstable (some exceptions).
In my last company (I was there for 19 years) the "Rad Alt live - 2500 feet" with a cross check from the other pilot was an SOP call. Making sure that both Rad Alts agreed was particularly important on an LVP approach.
It made perfect sense to me and cost absolutely nothing.
By the way, I used to go into St Maarten with the DC-10. We always landed to the east and took-off to the west. It was not difficult as long as you had done your homework. The length of the runway and the hill at the eastern end were the main problems. Most of the time we could make JFK with a full load but sometimes the tailwind on take-off would mean a quick refuel at San Juan.
It made perfect sense to me and cost absolutely nothing.
By the way, I used to go into St Maarten with the DC-10. We always landed to the east and took-off to the west. It was not difficult as long as you had done your homework. The length of the runway and the hill at the eastern end were the main problems. Most of the time we could make JFK with a full load but sometimes the tailwind on take-off would mean a quick refuel at San Juan.
Last edited by JW411; 18th Mar 2017 at 17:32.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: W of 30W
Posts: 1,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by PJ2
The PAPI information is not on the Jepp Airport chart. The info is on the approach plates, just below the profile section.
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Valencia
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 737 was so close from the water maybe becouse the pilot doesn't calculate well the speed or alttitude. The problem was he did the go around very late. I can't understand how he could not see the lights indicated by the altitude
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PJ12:
It certainly is, on the 10-9A page, not the airport diagram side but the side with runway info and takeoff minimums. If the PAPI or VASI has limitations as less than standard distance or less than standard beam width, that info will be shown on the "takeoff info continued" page (usually the 10-9A page).
The info on the approach chart does show the PAPI and ALS, but is quick-reference info as opposed to the airport/takeoff pages.
The PAPI information is not on the Jepp Airport chart. The info is on the approach plates, just below the profile section.
The info on the approach chart does show the PAPI and ALS, but is quick-reference info as opposed to the airport/takeoff pages.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 5° above the Equator, 75° left of Greenwich
Posts: 408
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I didn't say that. What I meant was that 150 ft below minima is certainly higher than what they ended up flying at.
Regarding misset, my mistake, English is not my first language and haven't seen it written like that before. Though mis-set would probably be easier to understand for a non-native English speaker.
@Aluminum shuffler: you're right, I didn't mean to dismiss the whole wrongly set altimeter theory altogether, and surely they could have misheard an altimeter setting. However, if the pilots were familiar with flying in the Caribbean, an altimeter setting higher than say 1020 mb (30.14 inhg) at a sea level airport in the Caribbean is unlikely and should have raised an eyebrow. That's a big IF though.
I do keep the radio alt in scan once it becomes alive, and although in some mountainous airports (like several Andean ones...) it doesn't help much if you don't have some context or knowledge of the terrain around the airport, it's pretty obvious it's more than useful at a sea level airport.
With the info we have, I'm still biased to both pilots looking outside (or getting distracted somehow) when breaking out and no one looking inside. It still doesn't paint the full picture as a 3° path should look familiar to two commercial jet pilots, even if no PAPI. Surely the weather on this approach couldn't make that assessment any easier, but at least a rough "3° visual path" could have been "calculated"
, thanks aterpster.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dadanawa, you seem to be speaking the most sense here, backed up with numbers. If the MDA is 500' at 1.5nm or 700' at 2.0nm as you suggest, then it would be very easy for a 737 at a low thurst setting to lose several hundred feet if hit by a microburst or downdraught. It would take a few seconds to spool up and go-around which is what it looks like in the video. That weather was moving towards the airport (don't know if a frontal system or just a band or rain showers) and I have had experiences flying through a 'curtain' like that where there was a sudden downdraught and sometimes changes in wind velocity/direction (horizontal windshear too). If you were in IMC and breaking out on an approach, this may not be a hazard you are anticipating especially as the weather band on the weather radar may not appear to be moving. It could also be that the windsock situated half-way down the runway, may still be showing the runway as favouring the opposite wind as the weather over the sea may not yet be affecting that far inland. I think they got caught in something like windshear an responded appropriately, another few miles out and it would have been a non-event. The closer you get to terra-firma, the more significant downdraughts and windshear become and are sometimes an unseen danger.
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can people explain why the Truck heading towards the main runway in this video isn't being given more credit for a go around decision?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...78&app=desktop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...78&app=desktop
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LPPT
Age: 58
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone who has flown to FNC (LPMA) will surely know this, but in this particular case it's something to be expected even on a calm day. On other airports given the lack of recent episodes, you might be more relaxed, and more prone to be caught off-guard.
Last edited by GearDown&Locked; 20th Mar 2017 at 13:39. Reason: I was thinking about FNC and wrote MAD... is there any word for 'geographic dyslexia'
Can people explain why the Truck heading towards the main runway in this video isn't being given more credit for a go around decision?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...78&app=desktop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...78&app=desktop
May I remind you what that approach looked like?
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b7...pstcjz6lls.jpg
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That was on the correct profile until they stalled due to a radalt failure affecting the autothrottle and piss poor pilots. Whatever happened to this Westjet is unrelated to the Turkish.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 2nd landing was with a 'healthy' margin beyond the threshold, compared to the bigger visitors; so for a smaller cousin it was perhaps acceptable. But back to my question, which only the crew can answer: what did they do differently the 2nd time? They seemed to have worse vis e.g. the rain, but flew a better profile for glide path to the runway. Why? I'm assuming they flew both approaches on autopilot. I'm curious what they did differently to execute so different a profile. That is how we can learn from this. That is what this discussion should be about: what did they do wrong and then how did they correct it. This is a learning process not a blame process.
Last edited by RAT 5; 23rd Mar 2017 at 19:20.
Looking at that video ... and looking at the photo posted at the beginning of the thread, surely no one is suggesting they were taken of the same approach on the same day? The cloud cover, rain, approach angle are completely different. It's solid cover with rain on the video, broken and sunny on the photo .. the sea state is calm ... it would have been somewhat more lively in that storm etc ...
