Citywing incident Isle of Man
Based on what we do know, the aircraft landed in IOM at just above minimum reserve when the wind was gusting to around 56kts. This was following a diversion from BHD which is quite close. Most of us (myself included) put a bit more than plog fuel on that day. Just saying....
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We seem to be talking about two different events, one in 2007 (aircraft being blown sideways on the ground, subject of AAIB report linked to by a previous poster) and another in the last few days.
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I cant understand UK CAA declaration that the incident is investigated by Czech CAA. It is not correct.
In the Czech Republic, local CAA (ÚCL Úřad pro civilní letectví) is the authority for state supervision under civil aviation. The are not allowed to provide any investigation of incidents. Their speaker, Mr. Hezký, declared for media:
"We are in contact with UK CAA that grounded the carrier and which is solving the event. We are trying for cooperation but it is rather giving informations and consultations from our side, in other way we are involved very little. We are not investigating the incident, we have no right to do it."
For investigation of air incidents and accidents ÚZPLN (Ústav pro odborné zjišťování příčin leteckých nehod) is appointed. They investigate evens at Czech territory and air space. According Chicago convention (ICAO), incident and accidents are investigated by the state, at witch territory the event occurs. ÚZPLN don't investigate this British airport incidents.
In the Czech Republic, local CAA (ÚCL Úřad pro civilní letectví) is the authority for state supervision under civil aviation. The are not allowed to provide any investigation of incidents. Their speaker, Mr. Hezký, declared for media:
"We are in contact with UK CAA that grounded the carrier and which is solving the event. We are trying for cooperation but it is rather giving informations and consultations from our side, in other way we are involved very little. We are not investigating the incident, we have no right to do it."
For investigation of air incidents and accidents ÚZPLN (Ústav pro odborné zjišťování příčin leteckých nehod) is appointed. They investigate evens at Czech territory and air space. According Chicago convention (ICAO), incident and accidents are investigated by the state, at witch territory the event occurs. ÚZPLN don't investigate this British airport incidents.
Based on what we do know, the aircraft landed in IOM at just above minimum reserve when the wind was gusting to around 56kts. This was following a diversion from BHD which is quite close. Most of us (myself included) put a bit more than plog fuel on that day.
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The Cardiff -Anglesey service changed flight numbers and call signs to North Flying when they took over the route, presumably as this was an Vanair service operating solely in the U.K. This Welsh service operated under different terms to the IOM services.
How exactly are Citywing allowed to sell tickets for an aircraft with over 19 seats now? I thought that was one of the 'sticking points' of being a virtual airline with no ATOL etc.
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The 2012 revision of the ATOL Regulations defined the role of ticket seller with an exemption to the requirement to hold an ATOL. I'm planning runway30 airlines even as I type................
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If you are wholly responsible for the aircraft cost as a full charter and are selling seat tickets on that aircraft as the only ticket agent then you are in an identical position to an AOC operator operating their own aircraft - that also do not need an ATOL for seat only sales!
Independant oversight of some "less regulated" operators would be more welcome / increased ramp inspections - other than that there is ZERO problem with ticket agents and there is no real need to blow this out of proportion. The LET 410 is a very lightweight aircraft and obviously high wing - knowing the storm was coming - was the error of the ticket agent not to play safe and cancel flights or having their own SOP's or ops manual that defined the weather limits in agreement with the AOC operator "who will fly for food".
Operating a very light weight high wing aircraft on public transport flights in winds gusting 56 knots was a dumb decision!
If you are a ticket agent chartering an aircraft you at least need an ops manual and a very structured crisis management plan that dovetails into the AOC operators. Just my opinion!
Independant oversight of some "less regulated" operators would be more welcome / increased ramp inspections - other than that there is ZERO problem with ticket agents and there is no real need to blow this out of proportion. The LET 410 is a very lightweight aircraft and obviously high wing - knowing the storm was coming - was the error of the ticket agent not to play safe and cancel flights or having their own SOP's or ops manual that defined the weather limits in agreement with the AOC operator "who will fly for food".
Operating a very light weight high wing aircraft on public transport flights in winds gusting 56 knots was a dumb decision!
If you are a ticket agent chartering an aircraft you at least need an ops manual and a very structured crisis management plan that dovetails into the AOC operators. Just my opinion!
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AIUI, there is a clear distinction between an AOC and an ATOL.
An AOC is there to protect the passenger's lives; an ATOL is there to protect the passenger's money.
Operational matters affecting flight safety are the sole responsibility of the AOC holder; it would be completely improper and a total conflict of interest if the ticket seller were to intervene in operational matters such as deciding whether a particular flight should or should not be conducted in the prevailing weather conditions.
Evidence of a lack of effective operational oversight by the AOC holder would, in my mind, justify a regulator placing a stop on operations.
An AOC is there to protect the passenger's lives; an ATOL is there to protect the passenger's money.
Operational matters affecting flight safety are the sole responsibility of the AOC holder; it would be completely improper and a total conflict of interest if the ticket seller were to intervene in operational matters such as deciding whether a particular flight should or should not be conducted in the prevailing weather conditions.
Evidence of a lack of effective operational oversight by the AOC holder would, in my mind, justify a regulator placing a stop on operations.
Operating a very light weight high wing aircraft on public transport flights in winds gusting 56 knots was a dumb decision!
Operating a very light weight high wing aircraft with narrow track, fuselage mounted landing gear on public transport flights in winds gusting 56 knots was a dumb decision!
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Operating a very light weight high wing aircraft on public transport flights in winds gusting 56 knots was a dumb decision!
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"Operational matters affecting flight safety are the sole responsibility of the AOC holder; it would be completely improper and a total conflict of interest if the ticket seller were to intervene in operational matters such as deciding whether a particular flight should or should not be conducted in the prevailing weather conditions."
Sillert....
It was a general statement where it would be prudent for a responsible "ticket seller" to agree on operational parameters where they are happy for the AOC operator to cancel the flight on the grounds of safety. Which should have happened on this occasion - commander knew the forecast was for deterioration and still elected to continue beyond what was considered normal for the type of aircraft operated..... The bit you don't know is what commercial pressures the a/c operator may have been under to commercially operate the aircraft for contractual purposes....
My point was that the AOC operator has full and total operational control over the aircraft - when charterer / operator are two different parties!
It would still have been wise for agreement when to knock it off and let the storm roll through! Im not advocating in any way that a 3rd party interferes with a regulatory mechanism that exists for the safe operation of public transport aircraft!
Sillert....
It was a general statement where it would be prudent for a responsible "ticket seller" to agree on operational parameters where they are happy for the AOC operator to cancel the flight on the grounds of safety. Which should have happened on this occasion - commander knew the forecast was for deterioration and still elected to continue beyond what was considered normal for the type of aircraft operated..... The bit you don't know is what commercial pressures the a/c operator may have been under to commercially operate the aircraft for contractual purposes....
My point was that the AOC operator has full and total operational control over the aircraft - when charterer / operator are two different parties!
It would still have been wise for agreement when to knock it off and let the storm roll through! Im not advocating in any way that a 3rd party interferes with a regulatory mechanism that exists for the safe operation of public transport aircraft!