Jet 737 aborts takeoff, leaves runway - Goa
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Off you go. To the side. A few metres down the runway.
I have trained this, and I have tried it in real life. My Effoh who was in the habit of not setting 40%, but rather just push the throttles up (that is the way we used to do it on the .... fill in the blanks) did exactly that, and hit TOGA without checking anything. The left engine worked as it should, the right was not. Not an engine failure, just slow.
The nose was pushed about 2 metres to the side before I managed to close the throttles. Maybe we managed to move 10 metres down the runway.
Playing glider in the sim is a different situation to doing it in real life, in darkness and without visual contact with anything.
I have trained this, and I have tried it in real life. My Effoh who was in the habit of not setting 40%, but rather just push the throttles up (that is the way we used to do it on the .... fill in the blanks) did exactly that, and hit TOGA without checking anything. The left engine worked as it should, the right was not. Not an engine failure, just slow.
The nose was pushed about 2 metres to the side before I managed to close the throttles. Maybe we managed to move 10 metres down the runway.
Playing glider in the sim is a different situation to doing it in real life, in darkness and without visual contact with anything.
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Ever tried an engine failure just as max thrust is reached? At low speed? Hardly the most unlikely time for an engine failure, is it?
We are all trained to recognise engine failures during takeoff at various speeds.
Your training presumes a lack of thrust on one engine at speed (rudder skill) and not a significant overthrust on one engine below rudder effectiveness.
And the confusion is compounded with any reversers deployed trying to figure out what end is pushing or pulling too much.
Most pilots simply end up off the side of the runway while they are deciding (data based)
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Does this runway require a backtrack and 180 degree turn? How many times have I seen guys spool up the outboard engine to assist the turn (that's fine)....close the levers as they line up and then stand them up to 50% when cleared for T/O....but the spooling down engine hasn't fully idled and so it spools up faster than the other.......if you don't check for both stable at 50%.....you're going to get a big yaw. Does this runway require TOGA?
On the face of it this seems like simply not checking for BOTH stable before applying required take off thrust.
On the face of it this seems like simply not checking for BOTH stable before applying required take off thrust.
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Yup, requires backtrack. I wouldn't imagine the 73 would need the assistance of the outboard to make the turn though. I'm from Goa and I can't remember the last time differential thrust was used to assist and can honestly say I've never had any of them go to TO thrust straight from the turn.
Having said that, this could very well be the case here.
Having said that, this could very well be the case here.
I think you need to reel you wild imagination in
I was responding to
Initial reports saying starboard engine reversor deployed during T/O roll
Like someone above said, the chances of having a reverser deployed at the start of the takeoff roll are remote.
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172 Driver.
No. It's not.
I've got over 12000 hours and only seen it on one of my type conversions, and that only briefly
No. It's not.
I've got over 12000 hours and only seen it on one of my type conversions, and that only briefly
I have done engine runaway during recurrent training in a 737, but guess that is something the operator has chosen to put in the program.
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I well remember the night of V1 cut after V1 cut in the 737 sim when the instructor asked us, "got the hang of it then?" and on receiving our cocky assurances set us up one last exercise.
The beefer chopped one engine as soon as they had reached t/o N1 at perhaps 40Kts. The resulting excursion was astonishing. As was the following one. It took IMMEDIATE and EXTREME control inputs to control the swing.
By FAR the hardest EFATO drill on the 737 (and A320) is the low-speed failure with full power when no rudder authority is available to help keeping it straight. Partly because we tend to practice it less I suppose, after all, a low speed asymmetric event can't be a big deal, can it? Hell no!
The excursion of this event looks to me as if a low speed full power failure was not properly contained.
The beefer chopped one engine as soon as they had reached t/o N1 at perhaps 40Kts. The resulting excursion was astonishing. As was the following one. It took IMMEDIATE and EXTREME control inputs to control the swing.
By FAR the hardest EFATO drill on the 737 (and A320) is the low-speed failure with full power when no rudder authority is available to help keeping it straight. Partly because we tend to practice it less I suppose, after all, a low speed asymmetric event can't be a big deal, can it? Hell no!
The excursion of this event looks to me as if a low speed full power failure was not properly contained.
Does the CFM engine have a "keep out" band like the IAE ? If the thrust levers were splayed to assist the turn and advanced towards take off thrust while still in this position, would the FADEC rapidly accelerate the leading engine through the keep out range whilst the other engine lagged behind ?
The surprise factor would be considerable but even so they still went a long way off the pavement.
The surprise factor would be considerable but even so they still went a long way off the pavement.
No keep out zone on the CFM (that's pretty much a Rolls exclusive due to fan flutter issues).
While an uncommanded reverser deployment is very remote, it is somewhat more likely on the ground than it is in flight due to the air/ground logic.
While an uncommanded reverser deployment is very remote, it is somewhat more likely on the ground than it is in flight due to the air/ground logic.
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Squawk7700
that scenario happened to a 738 at a company related to mine. Departed the intended runway but luckily ended up on the crossing strip. Highly likely in this scenario, imo.
that scenario happened to a 738 at a company related to mine. Departed the intended runway but luckily ended up on the crossing strip. Highly likely in this scenario, imo.
Has become a serious enough threat that our FDAP now tracks this. On our airplanes it is assuring you have approximately 1.1 EPR or 45% N1, depending on model, before pressing TOGA.
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Forgive my ignorance here, if any...
I've seen many backtrack 180 take off's on the 737 (and 320) and as far as I can remember, the turn itself involves both engines with N1 at about 40% to accomplish the turn. I have never seen differential thrust being used on the 737 to assist a 180. This means, both engines are already symmetrically spooled and once the a/c is lined up and the PF advances the throttle levers (TOGA switch), both levers move forward in unison to T/O thrust with A/T armed, assisted by the FADEC.
I have not seen engines set to idle N1 at intersection T/Os or before T/O after completing the 180, unless T/O clearance has not been obtained or the crew is waiting for another a/c to clear the runway, a frequent scenario at Goa.
Could it be that FADEC was malfunctioning?
I've seen many backtrack 180 take off's on the 737 (and 320) and as far as I can remember, the turn itself involves both engines with N1 at about 40% to accomplish the turn. I have never seen differential thrust being used on the 737 to assist a 180. This means, both engines are already symmetrically spooled and once the a/c is lined up and the PF advances the throttle levers (TOGA switch), both levers move forward in unison to T/O thrust with A/T armed, assisted by the FADEC.
I have not seen engines set to idle N1 at intersection T/Os or before T/O after completing the 180, unless T/O clearance has not been obtained or the crew is waiting for another a/c to clear the runway, a frequent scenario at Goa.
Could it be that FADEC was malfunctioning?
Last edited by India Charlie; 28th Dec 2016 at 12:12.
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Stop judging: Pilot of Jet Airways Goa runway crash writes a strong letter
Excellent. Good on him! Wish he had added to the media to stop painting commercial aviation as unsafe and making the public fearful, when in fact it's a safety record to be damn proud of. And yes, contrary to popular diatribe, pilots actually fly airliners.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
That letter should be on every editor's and sub-editor's wall and perhaps at the beginning of every accident/incident thread on Pprune.
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Just for the sake of clarity... The above-linked opinion piece was written by some random guy who had nothing to do with the incident. As for the misleading headline that appears on that site, I'm sure he had no part of it.
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I don't think the crew would be allowed to write anything about the incident, even a sentimental piece like this, before the full enquiry was concluded. An anonymous guy from the same company perhaps.
