Puerto Carreno cargo 722 crash
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Lamia went out of business because their sole aircraft was destroyed
Sad because Aerosucre is one of the oldest pure cargo company still operating in South America. Used to operate 10 Caravelles until very late.
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The one thing that comes home to me both for this and the 146 accident is that in both cases it looks like "they had done it before and got away with it".
If (private pilot but flying glider tugs) I have ever done anything once and got away with it then I would try to avoid ever going there again.
So what is it in this Colombian context- Greed, the shear economic need to do so to stay alive (personal economics or for the airline) or some strong machismo belief that "I will continue to get away with it". Any comments in a local context please?
If (private pilot but flying glider tugs) I have ever done anything once and got away with it then I would try to avoid ever going there again.
So what is it in this Colombian context- Greed, the shear economic need to do so to stay alive (personal economics or for the airline) or some strong machismo belief that "I will continue to get away with it". Any comments in a local context please?
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22/04
I wouldn't put this down to being a Colombian/South American thing; there's also plenty of outfits in the supposedly more 'enlightened' areas of the world who are or were happy to push things too far, and gamble with lives at the same time. Sadly, I seem to have worked for two such outfits. One of which neatly fits in with the point that the Ancient Greek alludes to- is the mass loaded the same as that recorded?
One enterprising colleague even went so far as to tell me two important (in his view) points- 1). So long as the paperwork is right... 2). It's their aircraft, they can do as they like.
I wouldn't put this down to being a Colombian/South American thing; there's also plenty of outfits in the supposedly more 'enlightened' areas of the world who are or were happy to push things too far, and gamble with lives at the same time. Sadly, I seem to have worked for two such outfits. One of which neatly fits in with the point that the Ancient Greek alludes to- is the mass loaded the same as that recorded?
One enterprising colleague even went so far as to tell me two important (in his view) points- 1). So long as the paperwork is right... 2). It's their aircraft, they can do as they like.
It's a dirty little secret of the industry that some cargo operations routinely takeoff well above MTOW. This is especially in areas/countries where regulatory oversight is lax (or non-existent) but it also happens in so-called 'first world' countries as well. There is enough margin built in the system that they can get away with it, so long as nothing goes wrong 
There was a story floating around Boeing about 30 years ago that Boeing was discussing potential growth options for the 747 freighter, with one possibility being a million pound MTOW. One particular Asian operator (which no longer exists) allegedly responded to the effect of 'so what, we're already doing that'
There was a story floating around Boeing about 30 years ago that Boeing was discussing potential growth options for the 747 freighter, with one possibility being a million pound MTOW. One particular Asian operator (which no longer exists) allegedly responded to the effect of 'so what, we're already doing that'
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Actual runway length at Puerto Carreno is less than 6,000 ft. Declared length is 5,906 ft. The aircraft took-off with an eight (8) knot tailwind, with an OAT of 30 degrees Celsius.
A town of 10,000, Puerto Carreno is known for fishing, agriculture and some mining. I wonder what the cargo was...
Fuel load on the aircraft shouldn't have been a large factor. It is only an hour's jet-flight from Puerto Carreno to Bogata, but a 19 hour drive by automobile.
Sister ship of HK-4544:
A town of 10,000, Puerto Carreno is known for fishing, agriculture and some mining. I wonder what the cargo was...
Fuel load on the aircraft shouldn't have been a large factor. It is only an hour's jet-flight from Puerto Carreno to Bogata, but a 19 hour drive by automobile.
Sister ship of HK-4544:
Last edited by evansb; 21st Dec 2016 at 21:54.
m to be a lot to learn from this event, mind. Yes, it does appear that Aerosucre takeoffs were a spectator sport, and given the proliferation of 'exciting' Aerosucre takeoff videos on YouTube and elsewhere, operating right on the edge of the envelope with no margin for error or unexpected performance loss appears to be normal for these chaps - the normalisation of deviation, indeed. Well, if you're going to push your luck like that, eventually something like this will happen.
Numerous accidents have been caused by pilots' common sense being overcome by Luvvie fever.
It's not incredible to consider they were keeping the takeoff as low as possible for the cameras.
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I would not rule out the influence of each their takeoffs being filmed.
Numerous accidents have been caused by pilots common sense being overcome by Luvvie fever.
It's not incredible to consider they were keeping the takeoff as low as possible for the cameras.
Numerous accidents have been caused by pilots common sense being overcome by Luvvie fever.
It's not incredible to consider they were keeping the takeoff as low as possible for the cameras.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWqZepVLI_8&app=desktop
That's showing off, all right.
That said, on the accident flight the aircraft is barely rotated; it's still rotating as it crosses the road. Even if showing off, if one could, surely one would get the nose up before crossing the end of the tarmac?
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Aerosucre past history is non too imprssive,
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Operator index > Colombia > Aerosucre Colombia
Hope it helps
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Operator index > Colombia > Aerosucre Colombia
Hope it helps
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A couple of things---
1. Iron Duck, I'm glad you alluded to it; I have been scratching my head all day trying to figure out if the pitch angle was wrong, as in insufficient rotation. I let it pass, because none of the videos give a "great" view of the amount of nose up.
2. Back in the 1960's (I was a mere lad then, of course), Piedmont Airlines in the USA bought some shiny, new 727's, the original, un-stretched version. Not the -200, as in this thread. They routinely operated into relatively short fields, one of which was KLYH, at 5850 feet, field evevation 942 feet. Of course, I was unaware of the finer points of load, density altitude, wind, etc that influenced aircraft performance (a mere lad, remember), but summertime in that town could get well above 30C. A lot. On many occasions, a crowd of the townsfolk gathered to see the new bird arrive and depart. 100 people or more was not unusual. In the USA.
3. Aviation is full of stories (threads on this site as well) of third world operators loading lots of dirrerent kinds of a/c to the gills. People standing in the aisles because all the seats were full. Baggage compartments filled to the brim, the only limit being cubic feet, forget about the weight. Most of the time, they got away with it. Sometimes, not.
2. Back in the 1960's (I was a mere lad then, of course), Piedmont Airlines in the USA bought some shiny, new 727's, the original, un-stretched version. Not the -200, as in this thread. They routinely operated into relatively short fields, one of which was KLYH, at 5850 feet, field evevation 942 feet. Of course, I was unaware of the finer points of load, density altitude, wind, etc that influenced aircraft performance (a mere lad, remember), but summertime in that town could get well above 30C. A lot. On many occasions, a crowd of the townsfolk gathered to see the new bird arrive and depart. 100 people or more was not unusual. In the USA.
3. Aviation is full of stories (threads on this site as well) of third world operators loading lots of dirrerent kinds of a/c to the gills. People standing in the aisles because all the seats were full. Baggage compartments filled to the brim, the only limit being cubic feet, forget about the weight. Most of the time, they got away with it. Sometimes, not.
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MarkerInbound:
Wasn't that the -200 that had some of those options and the -200A that had all the options?
It's really hard to define "a fully loaded 727." Boeing had all sorts of engine and landing gear and weight combinations. I flew that tail in a prior life in the US. It was built for Air Jamaica with -15s, a max TO weight of 197,000 lbs and max landing weight of 164,000 lbs. Quick look at the charts, SL, flaps 15, 27c says the runway limit is about 160,000 pounds.
A couple of questions
Does anyone know the BOW for this, or similar Cargo 727's? It's been a long time since my 727 days.
One poster mentioned they had 19,000Kgs of fish on board.
With a 1 hour flight, maybe 9,000Kgs of fuel at TO.
EDIT: I don't see the post that mentioned the fish.
One poster mentioned they had 19,000Kgs of fish on board.
With a 1 hour flight, maybe 9,000Kgs of fuel at TO.
EDIT: I don't see the post that mentioned the fish.
Last edited by Old Boeing Driver; 21st Dec 2016 at 23:08. Reason: Info
Following this, and several other recent stupid and unnecessary accidents, I am beginning to realise that there must be some "pilots" with forged licences and forged log books out there, who are somehow getting jobs.
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ATCWatcher:
The other two aircraft are impounded at the (I believe) Brazilian Air Force's maintenance facility, pending payment on major work on all three aircraft. From what I know, they were able to get the ONE single aircraft out of there a while ago. This makes more sense than some of the rumors that they were just leased out or floating around with other people.
IronDuck:
It appears that it's essentially a minimum unstick / Vmu takeoff - they got close enough to the end and rotated regardless of V1, etc.
No idea what would cause that.. failed airspeed crosscheck, improper config, power setting/derate, or an engine failure/loss of performance on T/O roll, etc.
FYI there are frames extracted from the videos which do indeed show flames, ie. some type of surge or debris ingestion into the engines - it's very difficult to tell which ones, but clearly there was engine damage as a result of the excursion and fence / building impact.
Well according Airlinefleets, Aerosucre only had 2 aircraft left in flying order . One is now gone, not sure they can survive with a single aircraft .
Sad because Aerosucre is one of the oldest pure cargo company still operating in South America. Used to operate 10 Caravelles until very late.
Sad because Aerosucre is one of the oldest pure cargo company still operating in South America. Used to operate 10 Caravelles until very late.
IronDuck:
That said, on the accident flight the aircraft is barely rotated; it's still rotating as it crosses the road. Even if showing off, if one could, surely one would get the nose up before crossing the end of the tarmac?
No idea what would cause that.. failed airspeed crosscheck, improper config, power setting/derate, or an engine failure/loss of performance on T/O roll, etc.
FYI there are frames extracted from the videos which do indeed show flames, ie. some type of surge or debris ingestion into the engines - it's very difficult to tell which ones, but clearly there was engine damage as a result of the excursion and fence / building impact.
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People filming
I wouldn't read too much into people being there and filming the takeoff. Having lived in Central America for close to ten years now, in my experience it is very common to see people watching/filming at the end of the runways. In San Jose (C.R.) there are always a few people (and on Sundays many) at the end of the runway watching/filming operations. I have seen the exact same at airports large and small. It seems to be a spectator event even including a bar on the side of the runway at SJO. In Costa Rica: An Airport Restaurant...On the Runway! - Foodie International
An Iberia A340 passed low overhead on landing at SJO causing a stir in the media with all the videos that came out later. I post this video more as an example to show how many cars are stopped at the end of the runway with people watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5a6rWl6HEs
An Iberia A340 passed low overhead on landing at SJO causing a stir in the media with all the videos that came out later. I post this video more as an example to show how many cars are stopped at the end of the runway with people watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5a6rWl6HEs
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWg7Fcw2oeA
Full series of videos including the post-crash scene, and the (apparent) survivor, however I just can't comprehend how anyone could possibly survive an impact and fire like that, unless he was perfectly tossed out? There appears to be a significant vertical speed, like clearly lethal? I don't see how someone COULD be "tossed" forward.
Then again, the spread of the wreckage would tend to prove me wrong I suppose? I surely wouldn't have suspected that based on the video of the crash.
Warning - the footage is rather intense towards the end.
EDIT: It appears that the #1 / port side engine suffered the damage and surge / flames, as I see no frame indicating flames when viewed from starboard side (at all).
Full series of videos including the post-crash scene, and the (apparent) survivor, however I just can't comprehend how anyone could possibly survive an impact and fire like that, unless he was perfectly tossed out? There appears to be a significant vertical speed, like clearly lethal? I don't see how someone COULD be "tossed" forward.
Then again, the spread of the wreckage would tend to prove me wrong I suppose? I surely wouldn't have suspected that based on the video of the crash.
Warning - the footage is rather intense towards the end.
EDIT: It appears that the #1 / port side engine suffered the damage and surge / flames, as I see no frame indicating flames when viewed from starboard side (at all).
@EstorilM
I originally thought the flames were from a compressor stall on the #2, which are common, especially if you are jamming the power at the last second. (Assuming that's what they did)
However, I think the flames are from the #3 (starboard) engine.
My viewer is not good enough to get a great look.
They appear to occur right where that stone hut was located.
Maybe he hit that?
However, I think the flames are from the #3 (starboard) engine.
My viewer is not good enough to get a great look.
They appear to occur right where that stone hut was located.
Maybe he hit that?
To those who think the pilot is to blame for accepting the working conditions..well the reality is that there are probably a lot more pilots than there are jobs. If you don't accept the conditions then no job. If you bitch about it, word gets around that you're a trouble maker and doors will be closed to you when you go job hunting.
Refuse to take an airplane due to some faults and you won't have a job for long. Ditto if you ground the aircraft away from base unless one of the engines actually fell off the wing.
In this case we'll probably see overloading as a major cause. Fish and meats are very dense cargo. I use to handle meat pallets from Australia.. they were only 60% full but already at the lower-deck weight limit for a pallet (about 5000kgs). Frozen-tuna weighs a lot as well.
Also someone mentioned mining is done in this part of the world? They use some really heavy stuff and I don't think the roads are very good.
Looks like they tried to rotate, airplane was too heavy, wng hit some aerodrome fixtures which affected the flight controls on one side and **** went bad very fast.
Just be grateful for where you are born..that could have been any one of us here but for the grace of god.
Refuse to take an airplane due to some faults and you won't have a job for long. Ditto if you ground the aircraft away from base unless one of the engines actually fell off the wing.
In this case we'll probably see overloading as a major cause. Fish and meats are very dense cargo. I use to handle meat pallets from Australia.. they were only 60% full but already at the lower-deck weight limit for a pallet (about 5000kgs). Frozen-tuna weighs a lot as well.
Also someone mentioned mining is done in this part of the world? They use some really heavy stuff and I don't think the roads are very good.
Looks like they tried to rotate, airplane was too heavy, wng hit some aerodrome fixtures which affected the flight controls on one side and **** went bad very fast.
Just be grateful for where you are born..that could have been any one of us here but for the grace of god.
Any Spanish speakers here who can tell us what the surviver was saying in his hospital bed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m4_QZcZ2hw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m4_QZcZ2hw
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The survivor in the video was basically thanking the soldiers of the Colombian Army and God for saving his life. He said nothing at all about events...
Just watched the video where he was found on the ground. He ask if there were more (survivors) then told them to look in the cockpit, that that is where they were.
Just watched the video where he was found on the ground. He ask if there were more (survivors) then told them to look in the cockpit, that that is where they were.
Last edited by PuraVidaTransport; 22nd Dec 2016 at 04:13. Reason: Add second translation
Thanks for that PuraVidaTransport.
Looking frame by frame, it looks like the elevator was hard up as it crossed the road. I dear say that 727 needed another +20kts before it was ready to fly and had a very forward C of G. I also wonder if the spray of liquid squirting from the area between the right slat and wing was fuel or hydraulic fluid.
A sad end to what appears to be regular non-compliant operations out of that airfield based on previous videos. You would of thought the flight engineer or F/O would have spoken up during signing of the load sheet?
Looking frame by frame, it looks like the elevator was hard up as it crossed the road. I dear say that 727 needed another +20kts before it was ready to fly and had a very forward C of G. I also wonder if the spray of liquid squirting from the area between the right slat and wing was fuel or hydraulic fluid.
A sad end to what appears to be regular non-compliant operations out of that airfield based on previous videos. You would of thought the flight engineer or F/O would have spoken up during signing of the load sheet?