EVA B777 close call departing LAX
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EVA B777 close call departing LAX
“The air-traffic controller at the approach control who was handling EVA instructed the pilot to make a left turn to a 180-degree heading,” Gregor said.
“She meant to tell the pilot to make a right turn to a 180-degree heading. The pilot turned to the left. The controller quickly realized EVA was turning in the wrong direction."
Jumbo jet?s low turn on wrong course startles Los Angeles neighborhood - CBS News
ATC audio ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFdXax7Zh_g&t=21s
"The Federal Aviation Administration on Monday was investigating ..."
“She meant to tell the pilot to make a right turn to a 180-degree heading. The pilot turned to the left. The controller quickly realized EVA was turning in the wrong direction."
Jumbo jet?s low turn on wrong course startles Los Angeles neighborhood - CBS News
ATC audio ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFdXax7Zh_g&t=21s
"The Federal Aviation Administration on Monday was investigating ..."
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The controller sure doesn't help the situation when she gives EVA a left turn to 270 and then repeats 'turn southbound, southbound now' when EVA asks left or right.
This scenario out of LAX with vectors toward the hills was a favorite for GPWS training in the sim in years past.
This scenario out of LAX with vectors toward the hills was a favorite for GPWS training in the sim in years past.
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Sloppy ATC.
Sorry folks, ATC apparently made the mistake to turn them left after departure.
...but if I'm flying easterly off the south part of parallel rwys with a left turn...plus the instructed heading gives me a 270deg change of my path...my SA would make me querie that instruction!?
Her telling to turn southbound instead of 180deg didn't help to solve the situation efficiently either!
...but if I'm flying easterly off the south part of parallel rwys with a left turn...plus the instructed heading gives me a 270deg change of my path...my SA would make me querie that instruction!?
Her telling to turn southbound instead of 180deg didn't help to solve the situation efficiently either!
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Not very good ATC show. Not using standard ICAO phraseo did not help , and repeating same words over and over when she notices that the guys does not understand seems to be typical US . Reminds me of the " did they clear you to the gate?" famous audio in JFK some years back.
A question to the US guys here : Is an instruction like " stop climb" without specifying an altitude , and "Turn Southbound" without specifying a heading , a normal FAA Phraseology? It was used here on different aircraft not only to EVA .
A question to the US guys here : Is an instruction like " stop climb" without specifying an altitude , and "Turn Southbound" without specifying a heading , a normal FAA Phraseology? It was used here on different aircraft not only to EVA .
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So how close did this sloppy comms get an aircraft to the hard rocks hidden in clouds?
BR-15 still continued to the north at about 4900-5000 feet, mountains rising there to 6653 feet. The controller instructed BR-15 to climb to 7000 feet, abeam of Pasadena,CA (USA) the crew finally began to turn right, which brought the aircraft even closer to Mount Wilson (peak and Mount Wilson Observatory at 5715 feet MSL), and to climb. The aircraft passed the peak 0.3nm south of the peak still at about 6000 feet at a heading of about 090 degrees, rolled out at heading 180, climbed to 7000 feet and continued the flight to Taipei for a safe landing without further incident.
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We don't actually hear her turn instructions (did she say left or right?). EVA, on an easterly heading, replies "turn left heading 180"! Now had EVA understood the instruction as going the long way around to 180 then fair enough, but they actually headed north! I would call THAT poor airmanship! Sure, her comms was sloppy and panicky but, in my opinion, the EVA's flying skills were not up to much either!
I thought Level 6 English was supposed to fix communication problems like this? Both were at fault IMHO. The controller kept giving EVA ambiguous instructions and the crew were not clarifying the direction of turn she required to go "southbound".
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According to the AVHearld report very.....
BR-15 still continued to the north at about 4900-5000 feet, mountains rising there to 6653 feet. The controller instructed BR-15 to climb to 7000 feet, abeam of Pasadena,CA (USA) the crew finally began to turn right, which brought the aircraft even closer to Mount Wilson (peak and Mount Wilson Observatory at 5715 feet MSL), and to climb. The aircraft passed the peak 0.3nm south of the peak still at about 6000 feet at a heading of about 090 degrees, rolled out at heading 180, climbed to 7000 feet and continued the flight to Taipei for a safe landing without further incident.
BR-15 still continued to the north at about 4900-5000 feet, mountains rising there to 6653 feet. The controller instructed BR-15 to climb to 7000 feet, abeam of Pasadena,CA (USA) the crew finally began to turn right, which brought the aircraft even closer to Mount Wilson (peak and Mount Wilson Observatory at 5715 feet MSL), and to climb. The aircraft passed the peak 0.3nm south of the peak still at about 6000 feet at a heading of about 090 degrees, rolled out at heading 180, climbed to 7000 feet and continued the flight to Taipei for a safe landing without further incident.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/br15#be7fcf0
They must have had plenty of EGPWS warning, I've done the scenario with those hills in the sim more than once. The possibly apocryphal 'shutup gringo' call in the Avianca 011 crash comes to mind.
I thought Level 6 English was supposed to fix communication problems like this? Both were at fault IMHO. The controller kept giving EVA ambiguous instructions and the crew were not clarifying the direction of turn she required to go "southbound".
(and yes i do fly into the usofa.....)
http://http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20161028-native-english-speakers-are-the-worlds-worst-communicators
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found nothing in the ATC transcript that would indicate the EVA was given a left turn to the north.
SoCal Departure: „(unreadable)..180, climb and maintain 7,000.„
EVA 15: „Left heading 180 (south), climb and maintain 7,000 EVA 15 heavy.„
So no proof madam ATC was at fault in the first place.
There were plenty of time to realize for the crew that the heading they're on to was in fact NOT 180.
FR24 showed a speed of 336 KTS at 6.300 ft. Is this for real below 100 ?
SoCal Departure: „(unreadable)..180, climb and maintain 7,000.„
EVA 15: „Left heading 180 (south), climb and maintain 7,000 EVA 15 heavy.„
So no proof madam ATC was at fault in the first place.
There were plenty of time to realize for the crew that the heading they're on to was in fact NOT 180.
FR24 showed a speed of 336 KTS at 6.300 ft. Is this for real below 100 ?
US ATC are not obligated to check readbacks and challenge.
EVA obviously had no SA as exhibited that they happily turned towards terrain with no obvious issue.
The controller once it was obvious that EVA was a rogue should have been very clear in her instruction and guided EVA away from trouble. "turn Southbound" was unbelievably vague in this case.
EVA obviously had no SA as exhibited that they happily turned towards terrain with no obvious issue.
The controller once it was obvious that EVA was a rogue should have been very clear in her instruction and guided EVA away from trouble. "turn Southbound" was unbelievably vague in this case.
FR24 showed a speed of 336 KTS at 6.300 ft. Is this for real below 100 ?
"turn Southbound" was unbelievably vague in this case.
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LAX & SLC EGPWS Sim scenarios are dereguer in our schoolhouse. There's nothing subtle about a terrain escape maneuver! 250KIAS is the maximum below !0,000 in the Continental US. There is no avenue for a controller to approve faster. Some pretty funky winds this week, so its possible they had a 100kt tailwind at 6000... but if they were faster thats another visit to the Chiefs office...
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@rightwayup. Got on then, 91.117. Unless approved by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft above a speed of 250kias below 10,000.
Clearly we're talking about the civil system and the military operates under different rules, but no US 121 operator has permission from the Administrator.
I'm all ears if you have something better, cos my jet loves a 290-320kt climb....
Clearly we're talking about the civil system and the military operates under different rules, but no US 121 operator has permission from the Administrator.
I'm all ears if you have something better, cos my jet loves a 290-320kt climb....
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It IS true, in general, outside of Restricted [Military] airspace. The sole exception is when the airplane cannot be safely flown slower, e.g., a heavy airplane after takeoff that has a minimum clean speed >250. That exception is available without specific clearance EXCEPT in a few airport areas such as ORD, where the speed limit is specifically cited.
A controller cannot approve faster. A waiver must be gotten from the FAA for airshows and other specific events.
A controller cannot approve faster. A waiver must be gotten from the FAA for airshows and other specific events.
Last edited by Intruder; 21st Dec 2016 at 20:36.