EVA B777 close call departing LAX
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Fortunately, pilots (some at least) are getting better tools to hold up their end (EGPWS, 3D cockpit maps, etc.). It may be more a question of better arranging when and how a PIC can depart from an ATC clearance that has them heading for terrain, and training on how important it is to do that, and not let "ATC Authority Gradient" put one at risk. "Unable maintain 6000, terrain - climbing to 8000 right now! Get 'em out of my way!"
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US ATC are not obligated to check readbacks and challenge.
EVA obviously had no SA as exhibited that they happily turned towards terrain with no obvious issue.
The controller once it was obvious that EVA was a rogue should have been very clear in her instruction and guided EVA away from trouble. "turn Southbound" was unbelievably vague in this case.
EVA obviously had no SA as exhibited that they happily turned towards terrain with no obvious issue.
The controller once it was obvious that EVA was a rogue should have been very clear in her instruction and guided EVA away from trouble. "turn Southbound" was unbelievably vague in this case.
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It is a valid phraseology. However it should be used for directing VFR traffic not IFR , it also can ( and is ) be used for calling out conflicting traffic.
To provide a direction or suggested headings to VFR aircraft as a method for radar identification or as an advisory aid to navigation.PHRASEOLOGY−(Identification), PROCEED (direction)−BOUND, (other instructions or information as necessary)
page 119 https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf
Also - In this case, to disambiguate an instruction to a non-english native speaker it wasn't such a bad idea ?
To provide a direction or suggested headings to VFR aircraft as a method for radar identification or as an advisory aid to navigation.PHRASEOLOGY−(Identification), PROCEED (direction)−BOUND, (other instructions or information as necessary)
page 119 https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf
Also - In this case, to disambiguate an instruction to a non-english native speaker it wasn't such a bad idea ?
Many years ago during class room stuff instructor cited an accident out of LAX where a crew were under radar and given a vector to the west, where upon radar forgot about them and they crashed in the mountains, think it was a GA type. The lesson he was imparting to we newbies was even if you're under radar keep a plot by whatever means (long before GPS) as to your location and speak up when in doubt.
A USAF C-135 (707) took off North from El Toro airbase in SoCo for Hickam AB Hawaii and did not turn left towards the sea and went into the mountains soon after take off
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Many years ago during class room stuff instructor cited an accident out of LAX where a crew were under radar and given a vector to the west, where upon radar forgot about them and they crashed in the mountains, think it was a GA type. The lesson he was imparting to we newbies was even if you're under radar keep a plot by whatever means (long before GPS) as to your location and speak up when in doubt.
There was a Cessna 182 being vectored into Burbank, a shift change, and the ATC forgot about him. Crashed several minutes later into the San Gabriel Mountains. Total lack of situational awareness by the CFI-I.
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That tragic accident was one of the arguments against converting El Toro into a "major international airport."
El Toro was not designed to be a jet transport airbase. I always felt that crew got sucked in. Had they had competent support, they would have departed to the south.
That tragic accident was one of the arguments against converting El Toro into a "major international airport."
That tragic accident was one of the arguments against converting El Toro into a "major international airport."
Arriving or departing into LAX (coming in from the UK) we always know we usually land into the sunset (often amazing) and take off straight out over the sea and then turn back.
Common SA kicks in even as a pax.
Not sure iirc if I have ever taken off the other way since 1982
I recall flying at night to Palm Springs a few times on a small commuter turboprop (yuk) and note their departure profile and the staged climb to get over the mountains before following down the valley to PS
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I recently heard (from a non-US approach control), out of the blue, "callsign Right One Orbit!". My FO flying didn't hear/understand the radio call. I hit heading select and rotated the heading bug about 180 degrees. We started turning, and my FO asked me what was happening. I told him ATC just told us to do fly "Right One Orbit". He said he didn't know what that meant. I said I was pretty sure we were to turn right and start holding. Sometimes things are non-standard, in many places...
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I said I was pretty sure we were to turn right and start holding. Sometimes things are non-standard, in many places...
I wonder if someone coming off the space shuttle would fly an eliptical pattern.
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I recently heard (from a non-US approach control), out of the blue, "callsign Right One Orbit!". My FO flying didn't hear/understand the radio call. I hit heading select and rotated the heading bug about 180 degrees. We started turning, and my FO asked me what was happening. I told him ATC just told us to do fly "Right One Orbit". He said he didn't know what that meant. I said I was pretty sure we were to turn right and start holding. Sometimes things are non-standard, in many places...
Cheers,
Grog
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Arriving or departing into LAX (coming in from the UK) we always know we usually land into the sunset (often amazing) and take off straight out over the sea and then turn back.
Common SA kicks in even as a pax.
Not sure iirc if I have ever taken off the other way since 1982
Common SA kicks in even as a pax.
Not sure iirc if I have ever taken off the other way since 1982
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Easterlies at LAX are more common than you might believe. Next time, as your landing slows, just look at all the tyre marks on the runways from easterly landings https://www.google.com/maps/place/LA...!4d-118.404025 .
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I told him "Right one orbit", and he said nothing. When we came back around towards our original heading, he told us "Two more orbits". I told him no, that we would be too low on fuel, and we would take the shorter runway (which he wanted us to take in the first place). The controllers acted like they were maxed out in capability, but there were actually very few aircraft in their airspace...kind of like the opposite of ORD, JFK HKG, or LAX...
