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EVA B777 close call departing LAX

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EVA B777 close call departing LAX

Old 18th May 2019, 13:37
  #281 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sadtraveller View Post
It is rather concerning, given the results of the NTSB investigation, that the FAA refuses to provide information on what happened to this controller, even to the NTSB. Her actions nearly cost hundreds of lives. Surely the public's safety and confidence in the air traffic control system should outweigh privacy concerns in this instance.

Furthermore, given the apparent level of competence demonstrated by the controller, it is worth asking whether this controller was hired as part of the FAA's revamped ATC hiring policy, which substantially reduces the weight of AT-SAT scores and aviation background. That change was widely suggested to put other factors "ahead of airline safety.” Did it nearly lead to a major aviation disaster, and is it likely to lead to one in the future?
What a load of b*ll crap!

She is a highly experienced controller with nearly 20 years on the job, including 5 years as a military controller (US Navy) before she joined the FAA.
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Old 18th May 2019, 16:18
  #282 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by futurama View Post
She is a highly experienced controller with nearly 20 years on the job, including 5 years as a military controller (US Navy) before she joined the FAA.
I'll take your word for it. Nonetheless, it seems that work experience wasn't of much help to her with this EVA fiasco.

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Old 18th May 2019, 23:12
  #283 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aterpster View Post
What really bothers me is the FAA ATC policy to place aircraft separation ahead of assuring separation from terrain. The controller should have climb EVA to prevent it from going below an area where MVAs became higher than EVA's assign altitude.

I find that absolutely appalling.
I'm totally in sympathy with your position in this (and subsequent) posts. After all, miss another aircraft by 100 feet - and everyone survives (absent panic). Miss a part of a mountain by 100 feet - and the odds are good you still hit another part of the mountain.

It is, however, the stated primary function of ATC to prevent aircraft-aircraft collisions. All innovations and "tombstone engineering" of the ATC system over many decades have been based on that proposition. Pilots are responsible for not hitting the ground, and ATC is responsible for pilots not hitting other aircraft.

And there is a certain logic to that: collide with another plane, and two planeloads of people die. Collide with a mountain, and we only lose one aircraft. Given that ATC is not exactly underworked and sitting around with free time on their hands, something has to give, and so the policy is "other aircraft first!"

Fortunately, pilots (some at least) are getting better tools to hold up their end (EGPWS, 3D cockpit maps, etc.). It may be more a question of better arranging when and how a PIC can depart from an ATC clearance that has them heading for terrain, and training on how important it is to do that, and not let "ATC Authority Gradient" put one at risk. "Unable maintain 6000, terrain - climbing to 8000 right now! Get 'em out of my way!"
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Old 19th May 2019, 02:13
  #284 (permalink)  
 
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DPattern_is_full,
Concur 100%....Your comments should be emphasised in line training,not only bashing out SOP stuff...More of the "real world,save your butt stuff!
With the modern generation of aircraft,there is less and less excuse for lack of situational awareness.
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Old 24th May 2019, 22:19
  #285 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
I thought Level 6 English was supposed to fix communication problems like this? Both were at fault IMHO. The controller kept giving EVA ambiguous instructions and the crew were not clarifying the direction of turn she required to go "southbound".
Hi look left,
Level 6 is supposed to be normal. It is not. Many are way below.
y
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Old 25th May 2019, 00:34
  #286 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pattern_is_full View Post
Fortunately, pilots (some at least) are getting better tools to hold up their end (EGPWS, 3D cockpit maps, etc.). It may be more a question of better arranging when and how a PIC can depart from an ATC clearance that has them heading for terrain, and training on how important it is to do that, and not let "ATC Authority Gradient" put one at risk. "Unable maintain 6000, terrain - climbing to 8000 right now! Get 'em out of my way!"
If I were flying today, I would always have the EGPWS up on any departure. Shame on the crews who do not do that. And, shame on those crews who do not exercise command authority on a timely basis.
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Old 25th May 2019, 04:03
  #287 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Right Way Up View Post
US ATC are not obligated to check readbacks and challenge.

EVA obviously had no SA as exhibited that they happily turned towards terrain with no obvious issue.

The controller once it was obvious that EVA was a rogue should have been very clear in her instruction and guided EVA away from trouble. "turn Southbound" was unbelievably vague in this case.
Sounds more like freeway instruction on a GPS.
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Old 25th May 2019, 13:21
  #288 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yarpos View Post
Sounds more like freeway instruction on a GPS.
Like a Garmin street GPS I used to have. "Ms. Garmin" spoke in vague terms with an attitude.
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Old 26th May 2019, 03:04
  #289 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yarpos View Post
Sounds more like freeway instruction on a GPS.
It is a valid phraseology. However it should be used for directing VFR traffic not IFR , it also can ( and is ) be used for calling out conflicting traffic.

To provide a direction or suggested headings to VFR aircraft as a method for radar identification or as an advisory aid to navigation.PHRASEOLOGY−(Identification), PROCEED (direction)−BOUND, (other instructions or information as necessary)

page 119 https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf

Also - In this case, to disambiguate an instruction to a non-english native speaker it wasn't such a bad idea ?
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Old 26th May 2019, 05:31
  #290 (permalink)  
 
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Many years ago during class room stuff instructor cited an accident out of LAX where a crew were under radar and given a vector to the west, where upon radar forgot about them and they crashed in the mountains, think it was a GA type. The lesson he was imparting to we newbies was even if you're under radar keep a plot by whatever means (long before GPS) as to your location and speak up when in doubt.
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Old 26th May 2019, 17:16
  #291 (permalink)  
 
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A USAF C-135 (707) took off North from El Toro airbase in SoCo for Hickam AB Hawaii and did not turn left towards the sea and went into the mountains soon after take off
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Old 27th May 2019, 00:43
  #292 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Many years ago during class room stuff instructor cited an accident out of LAX where a crew were under radar and given a vector to the west, where upon radar forgot about them and they crashed in the mountains, think it was a GA type. The lesson he was imparting to we newbies was even if you're under radar keep a plot by whatever means (long before GPS) as to your location and speak up when in doubt.
Nothing but ocean west of LAX.

There was a Cessna 182 being vectored into Burbank, a shift change, and the ATC forgot about him. Crashed several minutes later into the San Gabriel Mountains. Total lack of situational awareness by the CFI-I.
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Old 27th May 2019, 00:47
  #293 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rog747 View Post
A USAF C-135 (707) took off North from El Toro airbase in SoCo for Hickam AB Hawaii and did not turn left towards the sea and went into the mountains soon after take off
El Toro was not designed to be a jet transport airbase. I always felt that crew got sucked in. Had they had competent support, they would have departed to the south.

That tragic accident was one of the arguments against converting El Toro into a "major international airport."
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Old 27th May 2019, 09:19
  #294 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aterpster View Post
El Toro was not designed to be a jet transport airbase. I always felt that crew got sucked in. Had they had competent support, they would have departed to the south.

That tragic accident was one of the arguments against converting El Toro into a "major international airport."
Very interesting - many thanks for the info,

Arriving or departing into LAX (coming in from the UK) we always know we usually land into the sunset (often amazing) and take off straight out over the sea and then turn back.
Common SA kicks in even as a pax.
Not sure iirc if I have ever taken off the other way since 1982

I recall flying at night to Palm Springs a few times on a small commuter turboprop (yuk) and note their departure profile and the staged climb to get over the mountains before following down the valley to PS
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Old 27th May 2019, 23:00
  #295 (permalink)  
 
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Nothing but ocean west of LAX
Of course you're correct, meant east, but of course it meant they ended up going west.
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Old 28th May 2019, 04:53
  #296 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
in much the same way I sometimes hear 'the good 'ole boys' not understanding ATC outside of their US home grounds Not often, but it happens...
I recently heard (from a non-US approach control), out of the blue, "callsign Right One Orbit!". My FO flying didn't hear/understand the radio call. I hit heading select and rotated the heading bug about 180 degrees. We started turning, and my FO asked me what was happening. I told him ATC just told us to do fly "Right One Orbit". He said he didn't know what that meant. I said I was pretty sure we were to turn right and start holding. Sometimes things are non-standard, in many places...
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Old 28th May 2019, 07:59
  #297 (permalink)  
 
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I said I was pretty sure we were to turn right and start holding. Sometimes things are non-standard, in many places...
And it ain't one orbit in the hold, but a continuous 360 degree turn.

I wonder if someone coming off the space shuttle would fly an eliptical pattern.
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Old 28th May 2019, 20:30
  #298 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atpcliff View Post
I recently heard (from a non-US approach control), out of the blue, "callsign Right One Orbit!". My FO flying didn't hear/understand the radio call. I hit heading select and rotated the heading bug about 180 degrees. We started turning, and my FO asked me what was happening. I told him ATC just told us to do fly "Right One Orbit". He said he didn't know what that meant. I said I was pretty sure we were to turn right and start holding. Sometimes things are non-standard, in many places...
"Pretty sure" has the potential to get any of us into a lot of trouble. Did you ask for clarification of the instruction " ... Right One Orbit"? What was the approach controller's response to your read back?

Cheers,
Grog
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Old 29th May 2019, 14:40
  #299 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by capngrog View Post
"Pretty sure" has the potential to get any of us into a lot of trouble. Did you ask for clarification of the instruction " ... Right One Orbit"? What was the approach controller's response to your read back?

Cheers,
Grog
I thought Orbit is what the Space Station does. And, John Glen did three orbits in 1962 in a Mercury capsule.

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Old 29th May 2019, 17:30
  #300 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rog747 View Post
Arriving or departing into LAX (coming in from the UK) we always know we usually land into the sunset (often amazing) and take off straight out over the sea and then turn back.
Common SA kicks in even as a pax.
Not sure iirc if I have ever taken off the other way since 1982
Easterlies at LAX are more common than you might believe. Next time, as your landing slows, just look at all the tyre marks on the runways from easterly landings https://www.google.com/maps/place/LA...!4d-118.404025 .
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